Can someone PLEASE help me understand why a 200r4

Can someone tell me why people are transplanting 200r4s into their vettes?

I have noticed alot of threads where people are asking about installing 200r4s into their cars. I can not uderstand why people would go through the trouble to do this. It is a light duty transmission. GM designed the 700r4 because they realized that they needed a stronger overdrive. That being said the 700 was vulnerable, but i can be fixed to survive at a small expense and is just comon knowledge on rebuilds, the only reason for one to fail these days is that the builder did not do good work, or just driver abuse.

I found this link and i suggest anyone considering a 200r4 install read this before you make your discission. http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=426&SID=6 . The 700 parts are just plain old bigger and stronger.

There maybe a reason for this install that i am missing and that is why i started this thread. I want to hear what people have to say about this.

The only advantage i can see is that you do not need to shorten the driveshaft for the 200r4 install, but that is a minimal expense and no reason to sacrifice the duribility of your vette.

I moved here to Florida in '97 having had my Muncie 336 vette in Maryland for some almost 3 years up there the amount of cruise above 60 mph was minimal at best....so o/drive was not necessary, here it's hour after hour at 4000 rpm on the freeway, so along with a engine swap that added about 100+ hp I went with the cheepest o/drive I could devise....got a 700 built....IMO, it's not a good mate to the car....first gear was way over done at 3-1, and then it had some bad habits....would not hold first gear at all, into second and bog on light throttle in traffic, engine would pull out of it, but could tell the cam did not like that 1000 rpm upshift point into second.....Then If I got into it whil in o/drive it would downshift didn't matter if the engine was t 5500 rpm, it would never UPshift....at that point it was silly frustrating, so I would lift a tad it would upshift, then get my foot into it down it went again into 3rd gear....

so I tolerated it, well extra cooler or not, the 3/4 clutch pack went so in went another clutch pack and the band while I was at it.....the original build had a Superior/Fairbanks kit in it....I had it done, did not do my own automatics at that time.....but the repair was the first time I ever worked on a auto tranny....it went fine, back in operation, but about 2 years later, it failed again, the 3/4 clutch slip problem, I immediately pulled that shift cable tight as it would go, and got a 200 4r core for 60 bux up the road....

went to the local tranny supply house, and built my own 200 4r about 4 years ago...this time around I went back to my favorite shift kit...TRANS GO, that has been in trannies since I can remember and always served me well.....not only is the 200 4r a better suited install, it is lighter, slimmer in the pan, first gear lasts longer, car will still come out sideways if I ask it to, so that 3-1 first is not necessary, it holds in o/drive at WOT doing freeway runs, and it runs cooler, The rear mount sets on the crossmember directly with just a tiney elongation of they two holes....

My '87 vette had a 700 and it was dark fluid and time to go when I dumped the car, the tranny was just one more thing to fix on it

my engine is just shy of 400 supposed HP.....and the 200 was done with a 10 vane pump, tight converter, shift kit, and top quality parts, been fine so far....hitting shifts when it's supposed to, engine is much happier and so am I .....

:beer::yahoo:

Thanks for the insight, these are the kind of responses i am looking for.

It makes sense especially on 400hp car the lighter trans parts equal lighter rotating mass = quicker acceleration and less rear wheel horsepower loss, That is why poeople are putting them into light weight, high horsepower big block applications. With the upgrades you did to the 200r4 it should live no problem, in your application.

I must agree that first gear is so low on the 700 but i have used one in a heavy big block vette for alot of years, so the low first gear and some 4.10's gave me much better 60 foot times at the track and i have enough torque that the long jump from 1 - 2 is not so much of an issue in my application.

It is to bad that you had so much trouble with your 700, that would leave a bad taste in anybody's mouth. I am not a tranny guy, i have only rebuilt 700r4. I have built 4 of them for myself and friends in the last 12 years and knock on wood i have had a 100% success rate. The problems you experienced were normal for all stock 700rs and that is why i mentioned they need to be fixed when being overhauled.

For small block i just use The TransGo 2-3 shift kit, this kit is the fix for these transmissions - it covers allmost all of the problems you listed, accept for the gear ratios of course. Just do the upgrades the kit recomends, vette servo, big boost valve, i also spend some time with the 3 -4 clutch pack and you can usually get a couple more disks in it if you put a smaller spacer in --- i do not recomend buying the large number disk clutch packs because they actually make the discs thinner to get in 3 more discs in it, and try to use a good used band instead of a new one or you have to baby the thing untill the band gets seasoned if you plan on abusing the transmission - i think it even recomends this in the TransGo kit.

For big block cars i put in better input drums into them as long as all the small block mods. All 700rs must be 87 or newer, alot of factory upgrades and fixes in these transmissions allready.

It looks like when you went to the 200 you did it right and got it built properly and FIXED. It is to bad your 700 was not built properly when you went that way. It would have saved you some headaches.

I have also seen alot of 700 installs where the installer never put a vacuum switch on the torque converter lock up, this makes for a terrible driveabilty problem and the converter won't unlock when you are part throttle accelerating. Also i have seen alot of TV cables that are adjusted incorrectly, then the transmissions will not upshift a wide open throttle.

I am just the kind of guy that likes to have the strongest i can have so i would opt for a FIXED 700 that will easy handle 600hp instead of a FIXED 200 that will handle 450hp, especially when it involves the same amount of money. I am never happy with anything and am always looking for more power, so i try to make my boundries as large as possible. The first 700 i ever built went into my vette, when i installed a 427 into it and has been their ever since and the only thing i have broken is a torque conveter, the car has had a 572 for a year now and it has not killed the 700 but i know i am pushing my luck.

Well, it got to a judgement call the 700 was a later 87 unit with the extra valve body pack/valve....but what with the Superior/Fairbanks in there I didn't know what it would do if I added a Trans Go set of modifications.....so I stayed with it and just repaired it with recommended parts, let it alone....I tried so many adjustments with that throttle cable, it was all over the map.....no matter what, it always downshifted at WOT....so hell with it....and if I relaxed enough to stop that, first gear lasted about 1/2 a second, then bog into lugging...I never found a sweet spot....so I adjusted it the way I have the 200 set.....tight up, then floor the gas to pull the cable shroud through the thumb stop/end at the bracket, and get done with it...

snug as possible, throw/pull on the cable correct, and still allow WOT....all can do....

:hunter::clobbered:

Ya i see where your coming from and honestly for a 400hp aplication you are probably more performance oriented with the 200.

Don't hate 700s, you just got off on the wrong foot with them. I got suck with a dead 700, one i had never fixed, in my truck, away from home and had to pay a tranny shop for one, what a POS on the third try they sorta got it right then i sold the truck.

If you ever go to a big block don't be scared to try a 700 again just do to it what you did to the 200 and you will be trouble free and make sure they put a vac swtich in the lock up circuit, that is why you had all the lugging. The programing of the 700 is shift 1-2 then converter lock up the shift 2-3 then 3-4 and the TransGo kit fixes the 4-3 downshift at WOT with the correct TV adjustment - if you have the TV cable tight it will never stay in 4 at full throttle, but slack it off 2 notches and you will be close.

I saw Overhauling the other day ( i thnink it was the Nova Caine) and there was this tranny specialist claiming that a, don't know what specific type, 200 4r could hold up 1000HP and it had a better overdrive then a 700.

I watch overhaulin all the time, would love someone to come and dump unreal cash on my car ... haha. I know they use bowler transmissions all the time.

I was on the bowler site and they advertise a 550 ft-lb torque 200 and a 550 ft-lb 700, but they list no prices.

I would think that if i had 1000hp i would need some type of 4L80 and that there is no way a 700 or a 200 would take that much, for any amount of time.

I would be interested to hear from someone that has that kind of horsepower hooked up to a 200 or a 700.

Anyone interested in a overdrive should check this site out: http://www.transmissioncenter.net/ , they actually list prices. They also show you the parts and tell you about them, really great place for information.

Their big 700r4 is rated at 700hp/700ft-lbs torque
Their level 4 200r4 is rated a 600hp/?ft-lbs torque
the prices are similar
Their bad boy 4l80 is rated up to 1200hp/?ft-lbs torque, with upgrades but that is about 6500 buck and has to be full manual shift unless you want to install a ecm.

cajos1968 said:

I saw Overhauling the other day ( i thnink it was the Nova Caine) and there was this tranny specialist claiming that a, don't know what specific type, 200 4r could hold up 1000HP and it had a better overdrive then a 700.

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YEH, HP is one thing, b ut from what I read, trannies are rated in input torque, even autos....I know them GN guys jack that boost higher'n a moon rocket....
wonder them little 3.8's can hang in there, called deep skirt block....brick shithouse we call it...

but I dunno about all the various tranny buildups....and was scared of trying to convert my 700 to a Trans Go kit, as it was built with a Superior/Fairbanks kit....

figgered on having 4 reverse gears and one forward.....prrtt::gurney:

Danny 6' was building his 200 at same time, we talked a good bit about our experiences....I learned a lot, from him and the guides....

:shocking:

Both have their points. Both can live with way more HP than GM ever intended. I've been in both many times from stock rebuilds to let's go race. Both have some things I don't like about the basic design. As Mr. Kiss said- a 700 from late 87 or up gives you a good place to start, and if you can find a 200 from a GN or Monte SS you're ahead of the curve.

the 200 is a little smaller on the outside so the fit in a Vette tunnel is a bit better, but they put TH400's in there too and the 700 is a little smaller than that one. It cooks down to driveshaft and rear mount.
If you really want to get crazy, get a 4L80E, a computer to run it and drive on. Same 1-2-3 ratios as a 400 (last I checked) WITH an OD.

Art Carr builds our 200r4s. He states the extreme duty is good to 750 hp. So far no one has proved him wrong.:friends:

Like MrVette said, transmissions should be rated by max torque not HP but most people don't understand that. Torque is what busts parts.

I don't doubt that ArtCarr knows what he is doing. He was one of the first guys to FIX 700r4s and put them into race cars. He is the original overdrive pioneer.

The reason for this thread is i would like people to point out the advantages of a Fixed 200 over a Fixed 700. Not the advantages of a fixed 200 over a stock 700. In the first link i posted it shows that the 700 just has bigger stronger parts, than the 200.

Are their any guys running 200's behind healthy big blocks. So far my 700 is taking the abuse of the 572, but i know i am pushing it and the car has not seens slicks, which i am sure it will be a toss up between trans parts or rear end parts, or should i say toss out!!

I never had my 572 dynoed but i found a dyno test that Car Craft or some magaizine like that did on a out of the crate 572 620hp and it had 700hp/710ft-lbs torque on pump gas. I believe it that 572 is reall underrated by GM, i would like to see what the 720-572 actually puts out.

Mr.Kiss said:

Like MrVette said, transmissions should be rated by max torque not HP but most people don't understand that. Torque is what busts parts.

I don't doubt that ArtCarr knows what he is doing. He was one of the first guys to FIX 700r4s and put them into race cars. He is the original overdrive pioneer.

The reason for this thread is i would like people to point out the advantages of a Fixed 200 over a Fixed 700. Not the advantages of a fixed 200 over a stock 700. In the first link i posted it shows that the 700 just has bigger stronger parts, than the 200.

Are their any guys running 200's behind healthy big blocks. So far my 700 is taking the abuse of the 572, but i know i am pushing it and the car has not seens slicks, which i am sure it will be a toss up between trans parts or rear end parts, or should i say toss out!!

I never had my 572 dynoed but i found a dyno test that Car Craft or some magaizine like that did on a out of the crate 572 620hp and it had 700hp/710ft-lbs torque on pump gas. I believe it that 572 is reall underrated by GM, i would like to see what the 720-572 actually puts out.

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Torque would be correct if they rated them that way.:suspicious:

Art Carr states there is one of his tran's behind a Big Block Nova that runs 9s.

Some companies give a torque rating for their transmissins. Bowler Transmission is one, Performance Automotive Transmission Center also gives a torque rating of their extreme duty 700, but not for any others. I wish all companies would get on the band wagon and advertise the right specs. It would make choices alot easier.

A 9 second nova is going to be a light car for the track and not a street application of any sort. Light cars can use lighter duty parts without braking them and that just makes more usable horsepower to the rear wheels in that application. My vette weights in at 3750lbs.

Mr.Kiss said:

Some companies give a torque rating for their transmissins. Bowler Transmission is one, Performance Automotive Transmission Center also gives a torque rating of their extreme duty 700, but not for any others. I wish all companies would get on the band wagon and advertise the right specs. It would make choices alot easier.

A 9 second nova is going to be a light car for the track and not a street application of any sort. Light cars can use lighter duty parts without braking them and that just makes more usable horsepower to the rear wheels in that application. My vette weights in at 3750lbs.

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3750?? Jeezus....I though mine was heavy at 3300 even, was hoping for 3200 at most....I thought the heaviest shark was about 3600.....

:shocking::beer:

Now that i think about it that 3750 was with me in it and an aluminum headed 427, at that time i was only about 170 so that puts it just shy of 3600. I don't know what it weighs now with the 572 - when i put the 572 in i also changed to the 80 front and rear bumpers, i bet that knocked 100lbs out of the car, the 80 bumpers don't have near as much metal brackets. If i had to guess it still weighs around that 3600 mark.

OEM for my car being a '72 Muncie L48 Vert...was supposed to be some 3360 or something similar as I recall...about the only stock parts left on my car are the bumpers, LT1 induction on Aluminum heads, 350, 200 gained 50 lbs, headers lost a goodly 20, engine lost 100, radiator is aluminum lost 20, electric fans gained 20, lost the grills for 30, lost the iron back spring for 30, I guess the 17x9/5 rims/tires must be the weight gain...maybe 100, so the car is the same...but still, 3300 is a lot less load on that tranny than say a 4100 lbs Monte or GNX.......Drove a buddies new GNX some years ago....didn't really get into it though, he was with me, drove much like my '70 Lemans GTO convertible, another A body, after all......

wow i never realized the Grand nationals were tanks to.. did a little looking around and Ttop GNX full load - suppost to be the heaviest of them all is 3750, i now have a little more respect for those cars now.... haha ... even though they are not vettes. I used to race a 69 chevelle with a 454 and that weighed 4100, what a tank.

Mr.Kiss said:

wow i never realized the Grand nationals were tanks to.. did a little looking around and Ttop GNX full load - suppost to be the heaviest of them all is 3750, i now have a little more respect for those cars now.... haha ... even though they are not vettes. I used to race a 69 chevelle with a 454 and that weighed 4100, what a tank.

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TANK, hardly, that's lightweight, try my old '73 Grandville convertible....about 5500 lbs filled with helium.....100' long 60' wheelbase, 455 engine 400 tranny, 273 Posi rear,....:sos::sos::stirpot::devil:

I think that is more like a battle ship, how many people does it take to operate it?

Mr.Kiss said:

I think that is more like a battle ship, how many people does it take to operate it?

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:lol::lol: that barge is what I taught my kids to wear their seatbelts with...

some 24? years ago...slammed on the brakes at speed, 'thump, thump, two little kids on the floor, the ex all pissed off, BUT

from then on two clicks every time they got in the car....

CASE CLOSED as they say....

:devil: