200 4R or 4L60E (A41)?

Vette Master

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My current project is a transmission upgrade for the '77.
Turbo 350 leaks bad... real bad. It must be converter drain back cause it waits about 12 to 20 hours after a drive and then dumps.

Got a quote on the 4L60E from Keisler. Complete kit close to $4k
200 4R Level 2 from Bow Tie Overdrives around $2k

The questions I am struggling with are:
1. Is an electronic 4L60E transmission worth twice as much?
2. What are all the pieces I will need to use the Bow Tie 200 R4?
3. How much trouble is the TV cable on the non-electronic units?

Any thoughts?
 
Avoid the 4l60E like the plague, they are notorious for failure.
 
The 200 is almost a direct bolt in for the 350, kickdown/throttle cable is almost the same, the lockup wiring is no sweat....the length is set so it sits on the cross support directly....if you need to you can redo the shifter/console for 1st gear, but not really necessary....in short, its the way to fly.....

now having said that, you can pick up a good core for about 60 bux here in Jax Florida anyway...and then put in a TRANS GO shift kit, and no other, and a soft parts kit...new front 10 vane pump, converter....total cost 500 bux, do the rebuild yourself according to the ATSG guide, and it's good to go....

AND not as difficult as your mildest nitemares to do it correctly either.....Hell, if I can do it, you can too.....

:shocking::1st::gurney:
 
Sun shells were made poorly is the most notorious failure.

The transmission in my firebird blew up, with pretty much total catastrophic failure in the middle of an intersection. I had to coast into the parking lot of the local grocery store. Made me start looking into it.

My dad has experienced many many many transmission failures. All the 4l60E.
 
I beat the SH** out of my Z28 with the 4L60E and when I sold the car after putting 100+K miles on the engine and trans it was all fine.... I was surprised it survived ME.....
Personally I do not like auto trannies anymore, it's nice not having to shift but sticks are so much more fun....
 
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My current project is a transmission upgrade for the '77.
Turbo 350 leaks bad... real bad. It must be converter drain back cause it waits about 12 to 20 hours after a drive and then dumps.

Got a quote on the 4L60E from Keisler. Complete kit close to $4k
200 4R Level 2 from Bow Tie Overdrives around $2k

The questions I am struggling with are:
1. Is an electronic 4L60E transmission worth twice as much?
2. What are all the pieces I will need to use the Bow Tie 200 R4?
3. How much trouble is the TV cable on the non-electronic units?

Any thoughts?

Do NOT buy a 200R from BTO. My tranny guy regularly rebuild these units.
Have my guy build you one. Same price, but built correctly with good parts.
It is pretty much a bolt in.
The 4L80E is basically an OD Turbo-400. A brand new unit from Summit is like $2,600, and the controller is $900.
 
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Avoid the 4l60E like the plague, they are notorious for failure.

Sun shells were made poorly is the most notorious failure.

The transmission in my firebird blew up, with pretty much total catastrophic failure in the middle of an intersection. I had to coast into the parking lot of the local grocery store. Made me start looking into it.

My dad has experienced many many many transmission failures. All the 4l60E.

If they were that bad shops would be full of Chevy 1/2 ton trucks with bad transmissions.

They did have a small problem with the sun shells but that is an easy fix.

What blew up inside the transmission to cause your catastrophic failure? It probably wasn't the sun shell that you mentioned. That does really suck but you can't say that they are a bad transmission because of one failer.

I would go with the 200R4 since it is a much easier swap and you should be able to do it much cheaper than 2K if you don't buy a kit for someone.
 
2-1/2 days or 2-1/2 months?

Thanks for all the great responses! But you raise some more questions. Now you've got me really leaning toward the 200 4R, less bucks maybe a lot less trouble to swap. But:
1. Do I understand that the crossmember will not have to be moved?
2. What about the stock 350 yoke, will it fit the 200?
3. Will the TV cable fit in the carb bracket vacated by the 350 kickdown cable?
4. Will the stock speedo cable hook up?
5. Will the stock shifter will work with little or no modification?

Sorry for all the questions. My engine swap took about 2-1/2 days, looks like the transmission swap might take 2-1/2 months!!

Please understand that all these modifications are well within my grasp as a builder although they will be plowing new ground, I am just trying to get a grasp on what I am in for before I start.

Thanks!!

"If it don't fit the first time get a bigger hammer":smash:
 
Avoid the 4l60E like the plague, they are notorious for failure.

Sun shells were made poorly is the most notorious failure.

The transmission in my firebird blew up, with pretty much total catastrophic failure in the middle of an intersection. I had to coast into the parking lot of the local grocery store. Made me start looking into it.

My dad has experienced many many many transmission failures. All the 4l60E.

If they were that bad shops would be full of Chevy 1/2 ton trucks with bad transmissions.

They did have a small problem with the sun shells but that is an easy fix.

What blew up inside the transmission to cause your catastrophic failure? It probably wasn't the sun shell that you mentioned. That does really suck but you can't say that they are a bad transmission because of one failer.

I would go with the 200R4 since it is a much easier swap and you should be able to do it much cheaper than 2K if you don't buy a kit for someone.
I dont remember what exactly failed with mine. I think it was the output shaft snapped.

I would not buy one. My judgement.
 
Thanks for all the great responses! But you raise some more questions. Now you've got me really leaning toward the 200 4R, less bucks maybe a lot less trouble to swap. But:
1. Do I understand that the crossmember will not have to be moved?
2. What about the stock 350 yoke, will it fit the 200?
3. Will the TV cable fit in the carb bracket vacated by the 350 kickdown cable?
4. Will the stock speedo cable hook up?
5. Will the stock shifter will work with little or no modification?

Sorry for all the questions. My engine swap took about 2-1/2 days, looks like the transmission swap might take 2-1/2 months!!

1 The crossmember stays where it is. You just don't use the small triangular support the THM 350 uses
2 Just use your driveshaft and yokes are the same
3 Yes the tv cable will fit
4 Speedo cable same
5 You can modify your shifter to grab manual 1st, or buy a kit from Shiftworks
Read up on the TV cable adjustment and make sure you understand it. The lock up is easy enough to makeup yourself.
This trans is easy to build no rocket science.Get a manual and a video if you like off ebay

Try to locate one out of a Monte Carlo. The Buick G/N are hard to come by. Here are some codes to identify what tou are buying.The main diffrence will be valve body progaming, govoner. and separator plate. Other wise the the trans builds the same for all 2004r.
I have the 2004r in my 77 stock and it performes flawlessly. You will only notice mpg gains on highway driving.
http://members.aol.com/powerrslid/thm2004r.html
 
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200 4R Looking Better!

Thanks "ArtsVettes" for the straight answers to my many questions. Sounds like the swap is not that big a deal. What is your suggestion for a TV cable?
 
The 4L60E is an electronic controlled 700R-4.
The 4L80E is a 400 with O/D and electronic controls.
 
Thanks "ArtsVettes" for the straight answers to my many questions. Sounds like the swap is not that big a deal. What is your suggestion for a TV cable?

http://www.cpttransmission.com/tech_tvcable.htm

This is about the best info for setting and understanding tv adjustment. The amount the cable is pulled in the specific arc is key. I am running the stock Q jet. Anything diffrent you will need an adapter.

TV cables are cheap on ebay all the time...........Jack
 
TV Cable

Thanks Again! Great information! You guys rock. It must have been really hard to build a car out of parts and pieces before Al Gore invented the internet.:idea:

"If it don't fit the first time get a bigger hammer."
 
The 2004r will bolt right in with slight mod. to drive shaft. The yoke is the same. Depending on what carb you have ,you might have to add bracket for tv cable. The speedo cable should work no problem and the shifter wiil work also,may have to find trans lever with right geometry on slotted center. So ,you will have to moify drive shaft,buy a tv cable,dip tube and stick,flywheel cover and find the right shifter lever(trial and error), and possibly the lever for tv cable. Should be done by a professional trans tech to ensure trans will not burn up, what ever shop you have build the trans,have them install it too. Trust me on this.
 
The 2004r will bolt right in with slight mod. to drive shaft. The yoke is the same. Depending on what carb you have ,you might have to add bracket for tv cable. The speedo cable should work no problem and the shifter wiil work also,may have to find trans lever with right geometry on slotted center. So ,you will have to moify drive shaft,buy a tv cable,dip tube and stick,flywheel cover and find the right shifter lever(trial and error), and possibly the lever for tv cable. Should be done by a professional trans tech to ensure trans will not burn up, what ever shop you have build the trans,have them install it too. Trust me on this.

My '72 has a dead stock driveshaft in it with a 350 yoke on it....works find with the 200 4r and a 350 engine....no modifications other than to use the th350 yoke.....

and yes, the throttle cable is critical, but also the thing is easy to adjust....

the throttle/tranny cable has to be tight/snug when carb/t-body is full open WOT, and be just under slight tension when it's relaxed/closed.....

the total pull is 1.5 inches as I recall....maybe check that on your tranny to be sure....

:eek:
 
TV maybe ain't so EZ?

Ok, Here I go again..... Can anyone explain the difference between the $15.99 TV cable from CPT,



and the $119.95 TV Made EZ from BTO?

http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=213

I see the BTO kit has a bunch of silly looking brackets, why do you need more brackets if the stock kickdown bracket will work?
BTO also sells the stock GM cable for around $25, looks like the same cable in their $120 kit.

Thanks.....

"If it don't fit the first time,:smash: get a bigger hammer"
 
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