Near future project: Aluminum radiator support

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The Artist formerly known as Turbo84
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
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Clinging to my guns and religion in KCMO.
Finally got the '69 running again, and am planning the next modification project. The only idea that comes to mind is an aluminum support for the radiator. I welded up an under-radiator aluminum crossmember last year which took 5 pounds of weight off in front of the wheelbase, and I'd like to do a similar weight reduction on the core support. I'm slowly getting tired of having the car apart for weeks while I'm measuring/cutting/welding up a new piece for the car, so I'm pondering looking around for a comparable stock support that I could rent from a forum member to use as a pattern when building a jig for the actual aluminum piece welding. This way I could complete the build of the support and then only need to have the car apart for an afternoon when I swapped out the stock piece that's in the car presently.
Any helpful suggestions?

Thanks,
Mike
 
I think you could make one with just some stock off the shelf...use a tape and TIG it up, test fit, finish weld in about a weekend....

it's a pretty simple piece, really, and one little secret about this....

years ago I picked up a new front cross support, the boomerang shaped steel the support sets on.....I used to have two holes in it to bolt the support down to it.....but the 'new one' didn't have any fasteners....

and hasn't for some 15 years....

only thing holding it in the car is the 3 bolts on the sides through the fender liners....

I figgered if the 'new' used one had no bolts, it must be later model, and they were eliminated from production.....

so that simplifies your build....

:clap:
 
Check out groovyjay's website C3-r.com he had an alu rad shroud made, maybe it's a good inspiration.
 
I have one that I could lend. Let me know if you want it.

Thanks Larry, I appreciate it. I expect it will take me a few weeks to get caught up with the final tuning and tweaking of the latest engine and suspension changes, and the support fabrication will be a winter project.
I'll keep in touch and let you know when I get close to needing to borrow it.

Thanks again,
Mike
 
Someone in the parts world has the stamping equipment making these in steel. Can we just not send some sheets of deep draw aluminum or titanium to him and have a few lightweights made up? About twice the original thickness may work.

I do not know what steel the original part was made of. But, it is most likely was a typical steel with strength about 35,000 to 40,000 psi. The stiffness will be about 30,000,000 psi. TI will get about 60,000 psi strength put only about 15,000,000 psi on stiffness. AL will be at about 10,000,000 psi, but strength can be close to the steel depending on the alloy and treatment.

Got the following from RTI International Metals. Sounds fun. :smash:

George

Forming Titanium
Titanium and its alloys can be cold and hot formed on standard equipment using techniques similar to those of stainless steels. However, titanium possesses certain unique characteristics that affectformability, and these must be considered when undertaking titaniumforming operations.
The room temperature ductility of titanium and its alloys is generally less than that of the common structural metals including stainless steels. This necessitates more generous bend radii and less allowance for stretch formability when cold forming.
Titanium has a relatively low modulus of elasticity, about half that of stainless steel. This results in greater springback during forming and requires compensation either during bending or in post-bend treatment.
Titanium in contact with itself or other metals exhibits a greater tendency to gall than does stainless steel. Thus, sliding contact with tooling surfaces during forming calls for the use of lubricants. Effective lubricants generally include grease, heavy oil and/or waxy types, which may contain graphite or moly disulfide additives for cold forming; and solid film lubricants (graphite, moly disulfide) or glassy coatings for higher temperature forming.
The following is basic information on forming titanium. A great deal of published information exists on titanium forming practices in the common commercial forming processes. The reader is urged to consult the references in the back of this booklet and other qualified sources before undertaking a titanium forming operation for the first time.

Surface Preparation
Before titanium sheet is formed it should be clean and free of surface defects such as nicks, scratches or grinding marks. All scratches deeper than the finish produced by 180-grit emery should be removed by sanding. To prevent edge cracking, burred and sharp edges should be radiused. Surface oxides can lead to cracking during cold forming and should be removed by mechanical or chemical methods.
Plate products should be free of gross stress raisers, very rough, irregular surface finishes, visible oxide scale and brittle alpha case (diffused-in oxygen layers) to achieve reasonable cold or warm formability. Experience has shown that pickled plate often exhibits enhanced formability (e.g., in brake bending and dish forming) compared to plate with as-grit blasted and/or as-ground surface finishes.

Cold Versus Hot Forming
Commercially pure titanium, the ductile, low-alloy alpha and unaged beta titanium alloys can be cold formed within certain limits. The amount of cold forming either in bending or stretching is a function of the tensile elongation of the material. Tensile elongation and bend data for the various grades of titanium sheet and plate can be found in ASTM Specification B265.

Heating titanium increases its formability, reduces springback, and permits maximum deformation with minimum annealing between forming operations. Mild warm forming of most grades of titanium is carried out at 204-316°C (400-600°F) while more severe forming is done at 482-788°C (900-1450°F). Heated forming dies or radiant heaters are occasionally used for low temperature forming while electric furnaces with air atmospheres are the most suitable for heating to higher temperatures. Gas fired furnaces are acceptable if flame impingement is avoided and the atmosphere is slightly oxidizing.

Any hot forming and/or annealing of titanium products in air at temperatures above approximately 590-620°C (1100-1150°F) produces a visible surface oxide scale and diffused-in oxygen layer (alpha case) that may require removal on fatigue- and/or fracture-critical components. Oxide scale removal can be achieved mechanically (i.e., grit-blasting or grinding) or by chemical descale treatment (i.e., molten hot alkaline salt descale). This is generally followed by pickling in HF-HNO3 acid solutions, machining or grinding to ensure total alpha case removal, where required. These acid pickle solutions are typically maintained in the 5:1 to 10:1 volume % HNO3 to HF ratio (as stock acids) to minimize hydrogen pickup depending on alloy type.

Stress Relief and Hot Sizing
Cold forming and straightening operations produce residual stresses in titanium that sometimes require removal for reasons of dimensional stability and restoration of properties.

Stress relieving can also serve as an intermediate heat treatment between stages of cold forming. The temperatures employed lie below the annealing ranges for titanium alloys. They generally fall within 482-649°C (900-1200°F) with times ranging from 30 to 60 minutes depending on the workpiece configuration and degree of stress relief desired.

Hot sizing is often used for correcting springback and inaccuracies in shape and dimensions of preformed parts. The part is suitably fixtured such that controlled pressure is applied to certain areas of the part during heating. This fixtured unit is placed in a furnace and heated at temperatures and times sufficient to cause the metal to creep until it conforms to the desired shape. Creep forming is used in a variety of ways with titanium, often in conjunction with compression forming using heated dies.

Typical Forming Operations
Following are descriptions of several typical forming operations performed on titanium. They are representative of operations in which bending and stretching of titanium occur. The forming can be done cold, warm or hot. The choice is governed by a number of factors among which are workpiece section thickness, the intended degree of bending or stretching, the speed of forming (metal strain rate), and alloy/product type.


Brake Forming
In this operation, bending is employed to form angles, z-sections, channels and circular cross sections including pipe. The tooling consists of unheated dies or heated female and male dies.

Stretch Forming
Stretch forming has been used on titanium sheet primarily to form contoured angles, hat sections, Z-sections and channels, and to form skins to special contours. This type of forming is accomplished by gripping the sheet blank in knurled jaws, loading it until plastic deformation begins, then wrapping the part around a male die. Stretch forming can be done cold using inexpensive tooling or, more often, it is done warm by using heated tooling and preheating the sheet blank by the tooling.

Spinning and Shear-Forming
These cold, warm or hot processes shape titanium sheet or plate metal into seamless hollow parts (e.g., cylinders, cones, hemispheres) using pressure on a rotating workpiece. Spinning produces only minor thickness changes in the sheet, whereas shear-forming involves significant plastic deformation and wall thinning.

Superplastic Forming (SPF)
SPF of titanium alloys is commonly used in aircraft part fabrication, allowing production of complex structural efficient, lightweight and cost-effective component configurations. This high temperature sheet forming process (typically 870-925C°(1660-1700°F)) is often performed simultaneously with diffusion bonding (solid-state joining) in argon gas-pressurized chambers, eliminating the need for welding, brazing, sizing or stress relief in complex parts. Titanium sheet alloys that are commonly superplastically-formed include the Ti-6Al-4V and Ti SP-700 alpha-beta alloys.

Other Forming Processes
Titanium alloy sheet and plate products are often formed cold, warm or hot in gravity hammer and pneumatic drop hammer presses involving progressive deformation with repeated blows in matched dies. Drop hammer forming is best suited to the less high strain rate-sensitive alpha and leaner alpha-beta titanium alloys. Hot closed-die and even isothermal press forging is commonly used to produce near-net shape components from titanium alloys. Trapped-rubber forming of titanium sheet in cold or warm (540°C (1000°F) max.) pressing operations can be less expensive than that utilizing conventional mating "hard die" tooling. Even explosive forming has been successfully employed to form complex titanium alloy sheet/plate components.

The lower strength, more ductile titanium alloys can be roll-formed cold as sheet strip to produce long lengths of shaped products, including welded tubing and pipe. Welded or seamless tubing can be bent cold on conventional mandrel tube benders. Seam-welded unalloyed titanium piping can also be bent cold or warm on standard equipment utilizing internal mandrels to minimize buckling, whereas higher strength alloy seamless piping can be successfully bent in steps via hot induction bending.

Deep Drawing
This is a process involving titanium bending and stretching in which deep recessed parts, often closed cylindrical pieces or flanged hat-sections, are made by pulling a sheet blank over a radius and into a die. During this operation buckling and tensile tearing must be avoided. It is therefore necessary to consider the compressive and tensile yield strengths of the titanium when designing the part and the tooling. The sheet blank is often preheated as is the tooling.

The softer, highly ductile grades of unalloyed titanium are often cold pressed or stamped in sheet strip form to produce heat exchanger plates, anodes or other complex components for industrial service.
 
Been traveling a bunch due to family related issues, but I managed to squeeze in a couple minor projects between trips. I've always suspected that our C3s are left side heavy (someday I want to get the car on a four scale setup to measure the bias), so I've been trying to figure out ways to lighten up the left side. I recently moved the battery over to the right side compartment, and am finishing up the tack-welds for a bracket to mount the alternator on the right side.

IM001517.jpg

Once I'm happy with the alternator placement and welding up the rest of the bracket I need to reclock the rear half of the alternator and also finish up the extension harness to connect to the original harness.

The battery and alternator comprise a 40 pound shift from the left to the right side. Several months ago I spent a few hours at a junkyard looking for a lighter alternator for this car, but no one (OEM) seems to make an alternator lighter than 10-11 pounds.
I'm also trying a lighter (lower CCA) battery at the moment. I haven't had the opportunity to start the engine with it yet so I haven't included the weight difference in the above weight shift.

Once life calms down a bit I'll start to round up the material for the replacement radiator support for a few more pounds off the front end.
 
HOW can the cars be left side heavy when the moose sets to the pass side by a inch?? engine/tranny is what?? 800 lbs set to the pass side??

:confused::drink:
 
HOW can the cars be left side heavy when the moose sets to the pass side by a inch?? engine/tranny is what?? 800 lbs set to the pass side??

:confused::drink:

Do the math, Gene. Your 800 pound powertrain multiplied by 1 inch offset is 800 inch-pounds of force on the right side of the vehicle. Divide this by 12 (to get feet) and you have 67 ft-pounds of force (essentially equal to 67 pounds sitting on the passenger seat, ignoring the f/r aspect for this discussion). This 67 pounds is minimal compared to all the stuff on the driver's side (driver, battery, steering column, steering box, p/s pump, m/c and pedals, vacuum booster, and alternator). On my car the only non-engine right-side items are the heater core/blower motor and the jack.
 
Just for reference I weighed my car (full tank of fuel and driver weight in car) and it was right/front light around 100 pounds. I have all engine accessories removed except for alternator and I am going to move this to the right side. Heater box has also been removed. Cross-weighting is really close for being scaled for the first time and making no adjustments.

2504ceeb78085d5d.jpg
2504ceeb7801646a.jpg
 
I cut and rewelded a (used swap meet) tensioner arm I got last week, along with bending up a lower alternator support bracket (somewhat of an S shape), and then put those and the aluminum main bracket on my trusty HF digital scale. The original (4 piece steel) alternator bracket assembly (less the portion that served as the p/s tension bracket) weighed in at 50 ounces. The new (3 piece) bracket assembly weighs 29 ounces. So essentially I took 14 pounds off the left side of the car and added 13 pounds onto the right side.
I don't have an updated picture yet, but the old one should still suffice.


I'm also welding on the aluminum air cleaner base. I'm putting in a 1" breather tube for the hose that connects to the right side valve cover, and also cutting out some raw material to weld in the internal area. Due to the difference in the internal shape/drop, I had to cut out clearances for the float adjustment screws. Now I just need to weld the new clearance covering material in there.
 
I've been thinking about mounting a 90-96 corvette cooling capsule in my 82 vette. Maybe not lighter but nicely thought out and a easy solution to mounting dual fans. Is the radiator support even necessary in a C3?
 
I've been thinking about mounting a 90-96 corvette cooling capsule in my 82 vette. Maybe not lighter but nicely thought out and a easy solution to mounting dual fans. Is the radiator support even necessary in a C3?

It is on my '72 for sure, ties the inner bonded up fenders and that metal cross piece the headlights fasten to, and puts the weight of all that crap on the boomerang shaped bolt in cross member of the frame.....long time since I seen a later shark, so I forget those arrangements....gotta be very similar...

my '72 has the front tip supported via the bumper, obviously...
 
I've been thinking about mounting a 90-96 corvette cooling capsule in my 82 vette. Maybe not lighter but nicely thought out and a easy solution to mounting dual fans. Is the radiator support even necessary in a C3?

It is on my '72 for sure, ties the inner bonded up fenders and that metal cross piece the headlights fasten to, and puts the weight of all that crap on the boomerang shaped bolt in cross member of the frame.....long time since I seen a later shark, so I forget those arrangements....gotta be very similar...

my '72 has the front tip supported via the bumper, obviously...

Could you not brace that stuff in another way? The 90-96 radiator seems like it is raked back at a nice angle and if the frame width is enough to slip the entire capsule in, I would think the fiberglass capsul to be a great weight savings over the metal radiator support. Perhaps someone has a better picture of the capsule out of a C4. But basically it slips between the frame rails and is secured by studs in the top of the frame rail.

0401091724.jpg
 
Well, got the brackets finished and painted, the alternator reclocked, and stuff hooked up.

IM001521.jpg

IM001522.jpg

Biggest PITA was that the heater hose and the main bracket were competing for the same real estate so I had to put a shorter nipple on the water pump (and spill a bunch of coolant on the floor) and reroute a slightly longer hose. I now just need to connect the new rightside harness wires to the original leftside harness.

I'll probably pull the power steering pump out this weekend to put it on a scale. For reasons I don't understand, my (possible) later model replacement pump that I got out of a junkyard a few weeks ago is semi locked up. It was fine when I pulled it off the car (other than requiring a flushing), but apparently it bounced around a couple times on the (1600 mile) trip back from visiting relatives and the local junkyard. The pulley will rock back and forth about 5-10 degrees, but it just feels like one of the impellers inside is hitting something solid. It's not a big deal (the pump was pretty inexpensive), and if the weight difference is significant enough I can use this pump as the model to make the new mounting brackets and hoses, and then pick up a "new" pump when I get an opportunity to head out to a junkyard around here.
 
I stripped the bracket and hoses off the junkyard p/s pump (late 80's Grand-Am/Cavalier) and then put it on my trusty HF digital scale (damn I love this scale!) and got a reading of 5.90 pounds. According to some information I got on "the other" forum, the stock BB pump cast iron pulley weighs 4 pounds. I'm speculating that the stock pump itself will be well over 1.9 pounds, so it looks promising that I can take some weight off the LF corner by swapping a later pump into the car.
I still have the the old track engine sitting on the engine stand, so that will come in handy while I fabricate the brackets. It'll save some discomfort from having to bend over the fender doing trial fits of the pump positioning.

I need to look a bit deeper into this junkyard pump to see if I can disassemble it to figure out why it is semi-locked up. If I can fix it that will save me some time wandering the junkyards looking for a similar replacement.

Update: Lucked out! I was playing around with the pump and I noticed that I could rock the pulley a touch more than the previous 5-10 degrees. I speculated that perhaps the internal vanes (I'm just assuming there's some sort of vanes in these pumps) were just dry and sticking to the walls (I had drained all the nasty fluid out when I first got it home). I poured some WD-40 and ATF into the reservoir and wiggled the pulley until it turned freely. I then hooked the discharge hose to an empty drink bottle and handspun the pulley until it pumped out a bunch of fluid. Looks like I can just hand flush the pump a bit more and it ought to be ready to (eventually) install in the car.
 
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Got a PM from Larry that the loan of his spare radiator support is on the way here. I'll be using it as a pattern and to make a jig from. Thanks Larry!

Looking at my engine compartment it initially appears that I might be able to move the radiator rearward an inch or two. I'll be looking at it in more depth over the weekend, but if anyone has any reasons why moving it would be a bad idea please let me know. I'm guessing this radiator full of coolant weighs about 30 pounds.
 
If it can be done, I would move it backwards. Go for it. Don't know what kind off accy's you'll be using but the 502 I did had a serpentine setup (the spiffy kind, not hardcore racing stuff LOL) and it was fricken tight with the rad and electric fan, after I changed the rad angle.
 
If it can be done, I would move it backwards. Go for it. Don't know what kind off accy's you'll be using but the 502 I did had a serpentine setup (the spiffy kind, not hardcore racing stuff LOL) and it was fricken tight with the rad and electric fan, after I changed the rad angle.

Fortunately I have plenty of clearance between the alternator and p/s pump and the shroud. The first thing that will hit is the front sides of the upper A-arm shafts and the shroud. That's the limiting factor, I believe. The up side of moving the radiator (other than the weight transfer) is that the shroud will cover more of the fan. Right now the fan is as far forward as it can go while still allowing a touch of clearance from the rack.
 
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