Fuel line for EFI, type?

Yeah I'm familiar with the properties of aluminum. I was going to use the original steel line, but it was in pretty bad condition. And replacing it with the body on did not look possible. I can bend the aluminum line inside the frame mostly by hand.
I went for this kit. And yes it will have plenty of padded supports and the connection at the braided line will be supported to avoid flexing.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM-PUMPKIT2&N=700+115&autoview=sku
 
If there is one tip I can give for use with that alu tubing.... use BULKHEADS on the ends. Use a tab to secure the bulkheads to the frame, that will keep the end of the tubing supported, you won't twist it off when tightening the hose end on and it will keep it from vibrating and eventually splitting the tubing. That stuff is very soft.
 
Great idea!
Twin_Turbo said:
If there is one tip I can give for use with that alu tubing.... use BULKHEADS on the ends. Use a tab to secure the bulkheads to the frame, that will keep the end of the tubing supported, you won't twist it off when tightening the hose end on and it will keep it from vibrating and eventually splitting the tubing. That stuff is very soft.
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After further investigation it seems that all braided rubber lines die quicker than normal if used with EFI systems + a return line. And they all more or less let the gas smell through. Accelerated detetoriation is caused by recirculated oxidized fuel which attacks the rubber line. If I understood this correctly carb and returnless fuel injection systems are not affected. Earl's suggest the teflon hose as an answer to this problem.

There is many threads about this:
Braided lines leak fuel vapour
Earls leak vapour too
Aeroquip teflon not for fuel?
 
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I been using 250 psi rubber FI hose some of it is Earl's some is plain parts house stuff....but it's red label at 250 psi either way....

and for 15 years never a problem, never a leak either, for years I used the ordinary screw clamps, but lately changed to the total surround FI clamps....

and this is for many variations, too....
never a hint of any smells or anything to do with leaks...

plenty of problems with water/gas in the tank, though...and crappy running...
 
Problem with rubber lines in the abovementioned oxidated fuel case is that they deterioratate from inside faster than outside. I've had rubber lines in my old cars and you can see when they need to changed but if they go from inside there is no visible warning.

This is also problem with braided lines, the braiding hides any visible problems. So first clue is a leak or fire. ;) This goes with braided brake lines too - no good way to inspect them.

Well, I must think about it. In any case I will go with Earl's or Aeroquips teflon hoses. I have no access to a lift so I'll have to do the plumbing by lying on my back. This is why it would so much easier to use all braided lines. It would also minimize the number of connections along the line. Might use a one long hard line if I can fit it there smartly without major bends, I'll have to see what it looks like under there.
 
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I put my 3/8" aluminum line in over the weekend. I had to do it in 2 pieces. One arch that went over the right rear wheel well frame connected to a 90 degree bulkhead, then goes strait forward under the door frame. I pretty much used the original routing. I have no idea how this could be done with the body on and hard line.
I did put that 1/2" corrugated wire conduit/loom over the aluminum line. It really helped prevent the aluminum line from kinking, spaced the line off of the steel frame, and protects it from chaffing.
 
ToniH said:
There is no question about it: hard lines are more durable. But I am looking for experiences about the braided lines. I have no place or tools to make decent hards lines so I hope the braided lines would do (safely). I can get Aeroquip and Earl's hoses made to order locally so it would be a easy solution for me.

So, if there is any opinions or experiences why I shouldn't use them please tell me.
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Steel tubing isn't that difficult to work with and the cost of the tools is minimal, you'd most likely come out cheaper even with the price of the tools (flaring & bending) figured in vs. braided hoses. Summit has an inexpensive 37 degree flare tool for the AN fittings for under $30 and a tube bending tool is a third of that.

I use steel tubing with aluminum AN fittings on my EFI system, and the Aeroquip blue socketless hose for the sections needing some flex. I don't have odor issues and haven't seen a rapid breakdown of the hose; I'm a bit skeptical of that oxygenated fuel claim, I've used the black EFI hose, obtained by the foot from the local parts store, as my fuel pump suction line for years.

You could make the runs in two sections each (supply and return) using AN elbows at the rear frame kick-up to couple the rest of the system running forward. A gentle arc in a 4' section of tubing will snake up over the rear frame kick-up without too much swearing (I've done it before), a 25' coil of 3/8' tubing already has a curve in it you'll have to de-arc some to get it to follow the frame rail. You'll need to bend it a little here and there as you work it up over the frame rail, but not enough to risk kinking it; and you can do all this with the car on jackstands, which you'll need either way you go.

As for the tubing to AN interface, you single flare the ends with the 37 degree tool and use AN tube nuts and sleeves over the flares to make the connections, the steel to aluminum interface seals just as well as the steel to brass does in a 45 degree double flare type.

You might reconsider using steel, the aluminized tubing currently available is much more corrosion resistant compared to the stuff they used in cars 30 year ago; compare current aluminized exhaust piping vs. the non-aluminized pipe as an example (does anyone remember 20 years ago having to replace exhaust systems every 3-4 years?). Doing it this way is not as easy as running hoses, but I would argue it's just as durable as SS hose, but longer lasting, lighter (sans aluminum tubing), and you can utilize the factory method of securing the fuel lines.


Flare tool:
http://store.summitracing.com/partd...4294925137+4294909979+400304+115&autoview=sku

Bender:
http://store.summitracing.com/partd...925139+4294925137+4294852993+115&autoview=sku

90 degree AN elbow: http://store.summitracing.com/partd...307048+4294906726+4294906716+115&autoview=sku

Steel tube sleeves: http://store.summitracing.com/partd...310637+4294906726+4294906708+115&autoview=sku

Tube nut:
http://store.summitracing.com/partd...art=AER-FBM3675&N=700+310636+115&autoview=sku

Steel tubing: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM-220138&N=700+115&autoview=sku
 
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Thanks for your input.

I'm a bit skeptical of that oxygenated fuel claim
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My original interpretation of "oxygenated fuel" was incorrect. My english failed me there. Most commonly it is infact a fuel type where alcohol is used as oxygenating agent (very common these days). This type of fuel can detetoriate rubber hoses the way earlier fuels didn't.

I think most manufacturers have admitted this and added disclaimers to their catalogues, for example Earls says this:
"In recent years various fuel manufacturers may have added any number of new unpublished additives to their blends. It is therefore very difficult to know how the tube compound used in the inner liner of our Super-stock, Auto Flex and Perform-O-Flex or any other brand of elastomeric hose will react with a specific fuel. Because of the unknowns described above, we are unable to guarantee that the below listed hoses are the best possible products to use with any specific fuel."

Search google with aeroquip + oxygenated + fuel and you get tons of material. Probably with other brands too.
 
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ToniH said:
Thanks for your input.

I'm a bit skeptical of that oxygenated fuel claim
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My original interpretation of "oxygenated fuel" was incorrect. My english failed me there. Most commonly it is infact a fuel type where alcohol is used as oxygenating agent (very common these days). This type of fuel can detetoriate rubber hoses the way earlier fuels didn't.

I think most manufacturers have admitted this and added disclaimers to their catalogues, for example Earls says this:
"In recent years various fuel manufacturers may have added any number of new unpublished additives to their blends. It is therefore very difficult to know how the tube compound used in the inner liner of our Super-stock, Auto Flex and Perform-O-Flex or any other brand of elastomeric hose will react with a specific fuel. Because of the unknowns described above, we are unable to guarantee that the below listed hoses are the best possible products to use with any specific fuel."

Search google with aeroquip + oxygenated + fuel and you get tons of material. Probably with other brands too.
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PHreaking GREAT, just fukin' lovely....so it's all a guessing game now....

and as the hose disintegrates, the crap is burnt as fuel...what ELSE can happen..so the engine runs like crap, and the injectors get clogged with a lousey spray pattern....

not surprising....

DAMN the green weenie movement...they need all be shot a dawn...

ANYTHING to put us behind the ass end of a mule....

:bomb::bomb:
 
I just ripped out all the braided line I had installed for my fuel injection. The Russell line I used was stinking up the garage real bad. ifound on other forums also tha tthe Russell line has vapor problems and smells. I had a long line from the filter to the fuel rail, probably about 12 feet of braided line. I replaced all but about 2 feet with aluminum fuel line. So I now have maybe 6 to 7 feet of braided line between the pressure and return side. I used Aeroquip lines this time. After the first night in the garage I had zero smell. It has been a few nights now and a few runs with the car and still no smell. I threw all the Russell line in the garbage can. I don't know how long the Aeroquip will last but it is better than the Russell line.
 
ToniH said:
Which type of the Aeroquip lines you chose?
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NOT for any CAR, but I remember talking to the USCG design engineer who was laison with the Boating INdustry Assn.....as the use of DPFI was appearing in boats.....early 90's...having put a system on my Pontiac, I did the same to my Volvo powered i/o boat...used Aeroquip rubber hose with a blue outer jacket and TWO layers of mesh buried in that rubber...talk about a BITCH to work with, but it was the then developing fire code requirement the stuff was about a 1/4 inch wall thickness, and stiff as steel....so from the pump at the tank the run to top of the injection rail was about 3', then the return from regulator to tank another 3.5' but it passed inspection....

The coastguard man was VERY helpful, so if that hose does for Marine Injection use, I suspect it's good to go for a car, overkill though....

Something NASCAR would use IF they ever allowed injection....

:waxer::yahoo:
 
While investigating hoses I think I saw somewhere a note that your Coastguard has their own certification for hoses which are used in boats. So, just like you might see something approved by FAA or FIA some stuff might also be okeyed by the Coastguard. That should count for something. At least somebody has made field tests before saying its ok. Thats more than just trusting the companies selling the stuff. They all say their hose x is the best and the new type y is even more bester ;)
 
USCG regulations regarding hoses are very strict. I dont know if quality is an issue, most regs revolve around fuel spillage in a boat and fire resistance. There's a burn test for any part of the pressurized fuel system. This means pretty much all of the fuel systems are steel hard line.
 
Garys 68 said:
USCG regulations regarding hoses are very strict. I dont know if quality is an issue, most regs revolve around fuel spillage in a boat and fire resistance. There's a burn test for any part of the pressurized fuel system. This means pretty much all of the fuel systems are steel hard line.
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Still have a chunk of it setting around here, SAE DOT 54412 0292...Sounds like made in Feb 92......

which is the correct time frame for that project, and sorry no maker left on this hose, I remember it's VERY expensive....but supposedly rated for some sort of fire/safety....I think it was Aeroquip, but it's been a while...

1/4 inch ID, 5/8 OD, and double wrapped steel cordage....

harder than hell to cut, had to use a cutting wheel...

and that steel outside wrap, just inside the blue cloth jacket mesh is mighty sharp and persistant,.....:surrender::crap:
 
Coastguard specs are very strict, fuel vapors are a big concern in the engine compartment.

I doubt good quality rubber based fuel line has a problem with alcohol blended fuels, the transfer hoses at the local gas stations are rubber, I remember seeing the Goodyear label on some.
 
Return to old thread. Finally received my car in mid of June. But, my EFI installation still pending due problems in getting all the needed parts for the fuel line :cry:

Today we finally got the Earl's -8AN Speed Flex teflon hose for the project. It was special order item from our vendor and took ages. Well, not the correct one but almost (ordered black and received steel color). :mad:

Also some minor problems with hose ends. Teflon hoses need special hose ends made for them (traditional hose ends for rubber hoses are no good with teflon). So, we first tried to order the ones we chose from Earl's catalogue, result: obsolete parts and few weeks wasted. :mad: Okey, a new try from their european web site (could not find -8AN Speed Flex/Speed seal stuff in US site at all), oh crap only the carnival colored (red/blue) ones available for -8AN size :confused: Well, cannot be helped so lets order those, maybe I will paint them to non pimp color scheme myself. ;) Hope they arrive soon so we can get the project finally going...

Well, not completely wasted summer though: we installed new rear suspension and a rack and pinion steering.
 
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