Go Back   VetteMOD.com > VetteMOD Technical Discussion > Engine

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 10-24-2020, 04:32 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default DRY SUMP PARTS RECOMENDATIONS - Please

I am getting restarted on a number of projects on "Elvira." This thread is focused on Lubrication.

She will be a full-time track-day/racer (occasional drive to AX site-so street legal). Concerned about high-G loss of oil pressure on track, I am considering a Dry Sump setup and need some pointers. I find limited discussion here. I note "back in the day" TT had some comments over on DC as did redvetrcr.
I'm looking to get some intel and help in what I should be considering. Hopefully some members here have done this and can provide guidance.

I found [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...] [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...] has a pretty good summary of bits and pieces - and price$. Also [Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]has a lot of gear that works on serpentine setups. I'm looking for preferences or recommendations.

Relevant items I currently have installed on my 383 SBC:
Canton Road Race Pan with big kick outs -- That would be replaced -- I note AL pans can be problematic with damage. So it might have to be steel/stainless steel.
New Mehling Oil pump - guess that comes out too
Remote Oil filter mount - keep that
MasterLube Oil Accumulator - not installed yet - but keep?
Seperate oil cooler and fan setup.
Steering will not be a problem as I'm moving to a front steer setup.
MOUNTING PUMP I'll be running the steering in manual mode - so the KRC pump comes off. No aircon either - reasonable mounting options - or is lower better? My motor is mounted with motor plates not engine mounts so I will no doubt factor that in.
Grumpyvette has some good info on his site,


several images that clarify the function of windage trays, and a good schematic of Dry Sump flows, but I need some more specific ideas.

Like:
1. How many stages for the pump? 2, 3,4 - or 5? More stages is more $$, but if I save an engine it would be insurance. Minimum size for race configuration?
2. More stages gets more complex dry sump pan. Clearly the pan needs the same number of ports as the pump. Any specific pan recommendations? Also, I note in Grumpyvette's diagram, the return line is to the block and not the pan. Is there a preference?
3. I'm considering placing the storage/sump tank in the footwell of the passenger side. Good/bad idea?
4. What is the pre-start process? Complicated, or spin the pump to circulate the oil? [I'm in FL not Fargo! Would I need a tank heater on the tank?] Or start the engine and let it idle for 10 minutes until temp/pressure are reached? Or would a charged accumulator resolve any pre-start issues?


Or am I over thinking this--Just buy a kit and bolt it all on?

I've seen a few YT videos and looked for DIY dry sump setups - but no luck. Any links would be much appreciated.

Thanks In Advance.

Cheers - Jim
__________________
Rebuilder's Zen Saying:
One thought leads to another. If these thoughts link into a chain we become bound to the project. This bondage is subtle and remains until we complete the tasks -- or, STOP Thinking!

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-25-2020, 04:03 AM
vette427sbc's Avatar
vette427sbc vette427sbc is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 1,011
My Photos: (144)
Default

I have an aviaid 3 stage with 2.5 gallon tank. Iíd say itís nice entry level equipment. The pump is very nice, but the pan is pretty basic when you compare it to a Daly or Petersons. (I think pappy has one of those two)
Anything from jones racing is awesome, love their HTD pulleys (radius tooth) and they are very easy to talk to if you need something custom or just help configuring a drive setup.
I was told that as long as your pump is lower than the tank, it will prime itself for start up.

Due to packaging on my car, I chose to run a separate oil cooler thermostat. The thermostat/remote filter combo seems like a good way to save some $$ on AN fittings if you have the space. Iíve got two double pass coolers and an oil thermostat from Improved racing... looks like very high quality stuff, but again, no run time on them yet
[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]
__________________
Chris
AutoWorks Middletown NJ
@autoworksnj
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-28-2020, 03:20 AM
mfain's Avatar
mfain mfain is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Las Vegas/Phoenix
Posts: 372
My Photos: (6)
Default

Hey Jim,

I have always been a fan of Peterson, but this time I went with a Dailey pump and pan. I have a short stroke big block (so lots of rpm), so I chose a 5 stage pump (4 suction and one pressure). I also have the Dailey air-oil separator on the back of the pump, which causes problems (due to length) with standard side motor mounts - but is no problem with motor plates. I am using the Dailey signature billet pan that has the pump bolted directly to the side of it. This eliminates the scavenge lines since the pump draws directly from the pan. The pump sticks forward of the block about six inches, so you have to consider that for space. I had Peterson build my tank. Taller is better for head pressure (just over 3 gallons). Big suction and feed lines (-16) are good and you need a good sized vent line to the vent tank. I use a -16 there. You need a 100 micron filter in the scavenge line to the tank for debris, and a normal filter before the feed line goes into the motor. I run an oil heater in the tank so I don't have to get the water hot trying to warm up the oil before a track session. I run a Jones cogged belt drive and power steering pump. There are better photos of the dry sump pan/pump in my build thread. ([Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...] Post 13) This site would not allow me to re-post them in this thread.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]
__________________
Pappy


Last edited by mfain; 10-28-2020 at 03:28 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-29-2020, 02:55 AM
redvetracr's Avatar
redvetracr redvetracr is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: midwestern USA
Posts: 1,589
My Photos: (119)
Default

you can scavenge oil from the valley in addition to the pan, you can also run your cooler on either the scavenge side or the pressure side, if you look on ebay you will see whats called a segmented pan (basically dividing the pan into 4 separate sections, each requiring it`s own scavenge stage), a good oil pump will create a vacuum so you can seal the valve covers (NO vents) and vent the tank only, on my racer I mounted the tank behind the passenger seat area to keep it away from the heat, that might be a problem with a stock rear floor. in my mind the diagram shown makes no sense on the pressure "out" side of the pump (through the paper filter and the cooler off one line?) it also shown no screen filter (I had a Canton with a coarse screen) and don`t add screens to the pan they can get plugged with bits of silicone, use a screen filter. -12 lines are good a -16 from the bottom of the tank to the bottom of the pump is good along with -16 or a -20 vent off the tank, I did run one -10 oil line to scavenge the valley, my black had a provision for that, also know in advance your header tubes might be right where the scavenge ports are on the pan...my car is gone but looking at some very old not great pics I ran my paper filter on the pressure side along with a temp gauge and valve cover oilers and the cooler and coarse screen filter on the scavenge side
__________________

Last edited by redvetracr; 10-29-2020 at 03:04 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-29-2020, 09:14 AM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Excellent advise from folks "in the know." This is the best forum!
Thanks to all -- and Thanks to TT for getting it started.

Cheers Jim
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-29-2020, 08:11 PM
mfain's Avatar
mfain mfain is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Las Vegas/Phoenix
Posts: 372
My Photos: (6)
Default

As Redvetracr pointed out, a good dry sump pump will build vacuum in the crankcase. Depending on the size and efficiency of the pump, that vacuum can be significant. Make sure you have good seals. After watching the vacuum on my motor on the dyno, I decided to run a -12 line from one valve cover to an adjustable vacuum pressure relief valve. Then I continued the line to a check valve that would open if the crankcase developed positive pressure - this sometimes happens with a rapid throttle chop. The line then goes to the top of the dry sump tank as a vent line. Below is a photo of the vacuum relief valve that we rigged up (not the final configuration) during the break-in dyno runs when the vacuum was getting pretty high. Didn't want to suck the seals into the motor - LOL. The -10 line running into the top of the dry sump tank is the "air" line from the air-oil separator. The separator is a centrifugal device on the back of the pump that separates most of the air from the oil after scavenging and sends it to the top of the tank. Dailey has a good youtube video showing how effective it is.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]

Last edited by mfain; 10-29-2020 at 08:25 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-29-2020, 09:43 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Pappy -

That too is great advice. The whole lubrication system calls out for system integration, and that is why I'm asking our user/experts before heading out on a parts safari. Been there to often on other sub-systems of this build.

I may spend some phone time with one of the parts purveyors to see what their build ideas are too.

I might wisely :
1. Get Smart
2. Create my draft specs
3. Hire a competent builder/sort out the details/buy parts
4. Watch intently and ask a lot of annoying questions
There is more than one way to throw money away (did I hear you say mission-creep and cost over-runs)?

Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-30-2020, 06:29 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

I'll add to redvetteracer's note -

It looks like the Dailey pan that pappy has installed is segmented - and quite a novel means of scavenging the oil with the built in galleys. I do now have a header conflict (partial reason for this path + added performance/longevity)

I'm liking the pump integrated into the pan. Less stuff hanging around; hoses, brackets, etc. It also looks like it will help aid potential header clearance issues.

Empty cockpit, so placement there will be a good option on the passenger side. More hoses to run, etc. but clears the engine bay. May wait on exact placement until I get out the scales again. Oh yeah - and open the wallet!

Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-31-2020, 03:18 AM
mfain's Avatar
mfain mfain is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Las Vegas/Phoenix
Posts: 372
My Photos: (6)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomjock View Post
I'll add to redvetteracer's note -

It looks like the Dailey pan that pappy has installed is segmented - and quite a novel means of scavenging the oil with the built in galleys. I do now have a header conflict (partial reason for this path + added performance/longevity)

I'm liking the pump integrated into the pan. Less stuff hanging around; hoses, brackets, etc. It also looks like it will help aid potential header clearance issues.

Empty cockpit, so placement there will be a good option on the passenger side. More hoses to run, etc. but clears the engine bay. May wait on exact placement until I get out the scales again. Oh yeah - and open the wallet!

Cheers - Jim
Jim,

For the tank, I built a recess in the firewall (fiberglass) under the cowl on the passenger side - just aft of the back of the motor. I have an access door on the cowl to reach the tank cap. The back of the fiberglass recess intrudes into the passenger footwell, but it keeps the tank and its hot contents out of the passenger compartment. That tank location keeps the plumbing pretty short and direct. The first photo below is with the firewall cut out. It shows how I mounted the tank straps to the underlying cage bars. The second is the recess finished. The straps bolt through bosses in the fiberglass to the cage weld-nuts behind it. Hope that makes sense.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-03-2020, 12:11 AM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

I've had a long relationship with the folks up at Coleman Racing, so will be working some of the bits from them. They deal Champ pans and are quoting a 3 @12AN setup for me, to meet the left side requirement (spacing is driven by the headers). Also shallow (4 1/2") deep same reasons.

Off the crank, I am planning a 4 stage pump and alternator only Everything else is 12V. I'm figuring this all out [with a lot of you guys helping]. My local shop is "slammed" and can't get me in til late Spring! So, its on me [and you guys--THANKS!]

Chris - just wondering what ratio are you are running from your Crank to Alt. I'll have a 28 tooth alternator pulley. What size/tooth count Jones are you set with on the crank? {I can't read a PN - so have to ask}

Coleman Racing suggested if I was just running short events that 3 gallon tank would most likely be sufficient. I'm leaning to a 5 - just to make it more difficult to install! Thoughts?

Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-05-2020, 02:25 AM
mfain's Avatar
mfain mfain is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Las Vegas/Phoenix
Posts: 372
My Photos: (6)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomjock View Post

Coleman Racing suggested if I was just running short events that 3 gallon tank would most likely be sufficient. I'm leaning to a 5 - just to make it more difficult to install! Thoughts?

Cheers - Jim
Jim,

Bill Dailey once told me that he would rather have 2.5 gallons in a taller tank than 4 gallons in a short, fat tank. His comment was based on head pressure and better de-aireation of the oil. I think more volume is better for oil cooling, if you need that. I opted for a 7" diameter tank that is 21 or so inches tall - holds just over 3 gallons. I also have a big oil cooler that holds quite a bit of oil.

Pappy
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-05-2020, 02:38 AM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Pappy -

I was looking at the Z06 tanks as an idea and thought, hmmm - that might be an approach. Makes good sense from a lateral G loading too. Footprint is just like you mentioned, a narrow (but taller) tank is a little easier to situate. Haven't sourced a tall narrow tank yet - but that is now a focus. Oh yeah, I need to mention nice CF work on your install BTW!

I also plan on a cooler - already have one the shelf so that will be in the system too. It will still have to find a "favored" side left/right, but there will be a place.

Thanks and, Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-08-2020, 02:46 AM
vette427sbc's Avatar
vette427sbc vette427sbc is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 1,011
My Photos: (144)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomjock View Post
Chris - just wondering what ratio are you are running from your Crank to Alt. I'll have a 28 tooth alternator pulley. What size/tooth count Jones are you set with on the crank? {I can't read a PN - so have to ask}

Cheers - Jim
The water pump and crank are 1:1, I forget what the alt is and the car is still at the fab shop... Iíll have to see if I can dig up some records. 1:2.75 is in my head for some reason...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-08-2020, 11:55 AM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vette427sbc View Post
.. Iíll have to see if I can dig up some records. 1:2.75 is in my head for some reason...
Chris - I'd bet that might be close. Don't work too hard on finding the details. I probably don't want over 16-18K on the alternator, and with max 7K on engine >> 16/7 = 2.28 ; 18/7 = 2.57 (16/6 = 2.66)

Thanks and, Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-25-2021, 09:07 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default Lifter Valley Questions/ideas Please

So an update is due.
Forgive the schematic but too soon for real pics!

I have on-hand the following (circled in BLUE):
5 stage Dailey Dry Sump Pump
Peterson Remote oil mount with primer
Peterson 3 Gallon tank
Oil Cooler + fan
And just ordered (circled in YELLOW):
Kevko 3 Scavenge port low profile pan
Lifter Valley Baffle (pan)
Milodon lifter valley screen ports
The wet sump pan and oil pump are removed. The oil pickup post is now blocked and the drive for the oil pump removed too.
The intake manifold is not yet installed, which brings me to my questions (RED):
1. I see a number of references to adding lifter valley breather.standpipes to the 8 drain holes in the SBC lifter valley.


I guess this is to raise the oil level to be scavenged? Should I get and install breather/standpipes? The Mildon kit includes 1/4" NPT plugs as well as screens so I may have another option to the breather tubes and block off those "drains." What is our community experience for the lifter valley?

2. I guess the "smart" idea is to use the 4th pick up to scavenge oil from the lifter valley. (see red on diagram) I keep reading; "Do this" but not, "Here is how to do this." I think I have found a reference to doing that - but ask for your thoughts. Since I am using a crank trigger setup, I might be able to have a piece machined to mount through the exiting distributor hole to scavenge the lifter valley. (Screened naturally) Thoughts on this approach please!
Appreciate everyone's patience and advice. My engine builder has no experience with Dry Sump systems, so I'm kinda solo here.

As I get things organized and really started, pics will follow. [And, clean up the garage too!]

Cheers - Jim

Last edited by phantomjock; 01-25-2021 at 09:25 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-27-2021, 01:50 AM
vette427sbc's Avatar
vette427sbc vette427sbc is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 1,011
My Photos: (144)
Default

Iím interested to see more about the lifter valley pan/plugs. If youíre doing a crank trigger, doesnít your ecu need to see a cam position as well? And to go along with this, I believe the distributor plays a role in the oiling passages through the block.
Iíve got drysump envy already and you havenít even shared any pics! This place is dangerous to my wallet
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-27-2021, 02:40 AM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Yeah its the oiling through the passages I'm "concerned" about. And yes, "Cha-Ching" is the sound it all makes. Once the cam timing is set (gear drive - no chain), the crank trigger and the ECU are independent and replace the Dizzy. Its an Electromotive system I've had on hand a number of years. No timing advance from the dizzy required. I'm even removing the vacuum lines from under the manifold on the Webers as that won't be needed - as far as I know. No brake or transmission pull off either.

I've done a lot of looking yesterday and today (online- crappy weather here and the garage too cold to work in). At one point had over 30 tabs open on the browser - and that was just Yellow Bullet and Bang Shift! Pulled over 60 pages of just paragraphs on set up from those sites. Then add in Grumppyvette, Lateral-G, Pro-Touring, etc, etc. Soon to have it boiled down to maybe 10-15 pages. More words then. It won't be from experience - just research.

Good news, they shipped my pan today, so maybe by this weekend I can do some assembly. (and pics too).

Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-27-2021, 11:40 PM
redvetracr's Avatar
redvetracr redvetracr is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: midwestern USA
Posts: 1,589
My Photos: (119)
Default

thats a long pump, sure it`s going to fit in front of the motor mount stantion? did you have Kevko (Kevin right? he worked on my oil pan) place your bungs far enough away from your headers and not in the middle? and finally you can scavenge out of the valley with a smaller (I used a -10) hose.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-27-2021, 11:45 PM
redvetracr's Avatar
redvetracr redvetracr is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: midwestern USA
Posts: 1,589
My Photos: (119)
Default

your yellow "screen optional" should be screen filter IMPORTANT, I used a Canton/Mecca remote style with a coarse screen, oil cooler can be on pressure or scavenge, I ran it on the pressure in front of a remote with a paper filter. hoses to and from the tank -16, everything else (except for the valley scavenge) -12
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-27-2021, 11:47 PM
redvetracr's Avatar
redvetracr redvetracr is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: midwestern USA
Posts: 1,589
My Photos: (119)
Default

hopefully you already know you need to block the unused oil passage above the old oil pump mount, tap the rear main of put a plug in the block under the rear main.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-28-2021, 10:54 AM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Just the kind of information I knew resided here!!
Quote:
1. hopefully you already know you need to block the unused oil passage above the old oil pump mount, tap the rear main of put a plug in the block under the rear main.
CHECK! Accomplished.

Quote:
2. your yellow "screen optional" should be screen filter IMPORTANT
CHECK! Arrived in yesterdays Big Brown Truck

Quote:
3. oil cooler can be on pressure or scavenge, I ran it on the pressure in front of a remote with a paper filter. hoses to and from the tank -16, everything else (except for the valley scavenge) -12
COPY ALL - My Remote is the Peterson Remote + Primer

Quote:
4. thats a long pump, sure it`s going to fit in front of the motor mount stantion? did you have Kevko (Kevin right? he worked on my oil pan) place your bungs far enough away from your headers and not in the middle? and finally you can scavenge out of the valley with a smaller (I used a -10) hose.
Will be fit-checking pump mount this weekend. Will take some mods I bet. Also need to sort out the pulleys too. Yep--Kevin @ Kevko. Easy to work with and inexpensive. Pan should arrive tomorrow along with a baffle plate.

Looks like will be a -10 through the (now) unused vacuum port on the intake manifold. Seen here:


I'm starting to "waffle" on the Valley "breather/standpipes". I have a roller block (so roller lifters) and understand the valley drains can be closed off and not cause harm. But my Crew Chief reminded me we'd local drive to AX events, so might that be a concern? Or just put it on/in the box and tow anyway? Good thing I have all the smaller screens from that Milodon kit.

Thanks for the excellent advice! Very much appreciated.

Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-04-2021, 05:24 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Getting parts organized and my plan sorted out. Still a few questions keep popping up. Still focused on the Dizzy and the Dry sump with Electronic Ignition. (You can spend almost as much in fittings and hoses as a pump!)

Here is a quick pic of the SBC oil flow schematic (general):
Now, that is a simple diagram and probably leaves out a lot of detail. But, it does show the shaft from the Dizzy down to the pump n the pan.


So, as I figure, the distributor is turned by gear on the shaft as the cam sping. In turn, the shaft spins the oil pump in the oil pan (wet sump system). Other than that, I don't see what the distributor shaft does for oil distribution:

It seems that a Dry Sump System will accomplish all of that - without needing a distributor shaft (or oil pump in the pan). So, as a question: Do I have that right?

To keep from blowing oil all over the engine bay (and track) I already have one of these:


To feed the engine, I'll use one of these and just plug the port (the one on the side) on the remote plate I have already. It is the center that "feeds" the block.

That had me looking again... for other details, and this one image is particularly good:

That one is from Pit Stop USA (via MOROSO) and they have a pretty good reference with all the bits and part numbers (although it doesn't have a Lifter Valley scavenge included. Not much written, but overall seems like a good starting point -- if I didn't have all your support too!
Thank you THANK YOU!
(In hindsight, had I found that - I'd have had fewer questions. Too soon old - to late smart!)


Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-04-2021, 08:28 PM
redvetracr's Avatar
redvetracr redvetracr is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: midwestern USA
Posts: 1,589
My Photos: (119)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomjock View Post
[/i])


Cheers - Jim

here..feast your eyes on this...click the pic.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]

Last edited by redvetracr; 03-04-2021 at 08:40 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-04-2021, 08:45 PM
redvetracr's Avatar
redvetracr redvetracr is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: midwestern USA
Posts: 1,589
My Photos: (119)
Default

I don`t care for those (oil in/pressure side) adapters, in the old days we drilled the block just above the oil filter, the new race blocks are all drilled above the water pump, I also don`t think the double scavenge into the tank is necessary, I`m pretty sure I ran a -16 as most of what your pumping out of the pan (scavenge) is oil and air also vent the tank to a vent can using a -12 or better a -16
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-04-2021, 09:58 PM
mfain's Avatar
mfain mfain is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Las Vegas/Phoenix
Posts: 372
My Photos: (6)
Default

What are you using for an ignition system. With my Dailey Dry Sump I still have a distributer, but its only purpose is for the cam shaft position sensor. I run a crank trigger for ignition. I have a five stage pump that feeds a -16 scavenge line to the dry sump tank. I also have a -12 line that comes off a centrifugal oil-air separator that is driven off the back of the pump. It feeds air that is separated from the oil to the top of the tank. Then I have a -16 line off the top of the tank to a vent can. There is also a -12 line from one valve cover that passes through a vacuum relief valve before it goes to a one-way pressure valve and then to the top of the tank. This valve makes sure I don't have so much vacuum that I suck the seals in and the pressure check valve takes care of any inadvertent pressure spike in the crank case caused by things like a throttle chop. You are right - you can spend thousands on all of the plumbing and fittings.

Pappy
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-05-2021, 01:45 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Pappy;
it's an ELECTROMOTIVE XD-I/2.

I've been setting the engine up as "old/new-school" semi-tech as I can figure. So, its an electronic ignition, Weber 8-Stack, Cloyes gear drive and now Dry Sump. Any upgrade could be Hilborn Injection in lieu of the Webers. No fancy cam/valve train, the ignition triggers off the crank, so the cam is sort of "set and forget." Getting the timing right for the carbs will be a "thing" and no doubt a chore. But (hopefully) that will be rewarding -- I still have hope!

This from manual: (a few years old - I bought the system 10 years ago)
1.2 High Resolution Single-Crankshaft-Sensor Decoding
Some OEM direct ignition systems use both a crankshaft and a camshaft sensor assembly, making the
system more complicated and more expensive than it needs to be. Other systems use low resolution, four to ten
tooth trigger wheels on either the crankshaft or camshaft; these are not enough teeth to assure that the coils are
firing without timing errors. The XDI-2 solves these problems with a single, high resolution, 60-minus-2 tooth
crank trigger wheel. This affords resolution unheard of in any other electronic ignition available today, offering
spark accuracy of ľ degree of crankshaft rotation. This accuracy makes the system ideal for the most
demanding engines.
Clearly, the advantage would go to a variable valve train and turbo - but not on this effort.
I like the idea of your vacuum relief valve. I think you mentioned that before. It has been on my list to figure out. By chance, you have any part number or available link? Seems like a useful addition and I'd rather be better safe than face repair/rebuilding.

As as adjunct, I've been designing (that old engineering habit of mine) an air/oil separator. The new 3D printing revolution offers a (relative) inexpensive method for my madness. [No, I haven't bought one -- yet.]

redvetracr:
Very impressive collection of fittings. I have a smaller collection of mostly black and silver -8 and -10AN for fuel system, but no -12 for the dry sump setup. I will soon!

I like your idea of drilling the block, and may use that on the "spare" engine (its a circle track 355) sitting in the corner. Then I can also drill for the lifter valley scavenge and tap the inserts. It needs a build anyway. But, first things first.

I am running a single return to the tank from the pump - but my Dailey pump is set up with a -20AN fitting. Wow! there is some change! 30 bucks a foot. You can bet I'll be placing the tank close to the pump, and measuring carefully.

Hopefully next week (weather is improving), I'll get the oil pan coated; then installed, and start on some more bits for this segment. More parts to arrive early next week too. Pics will be included.

Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:27 PM
mfain's Avatar
mfain mfain is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Las Vegas/Phoenix
Posts: 372
My Photos: (6)
Default

Jim,

For the vacuum regulator I used the Peterson Fluid Systems Vacuum Regulator 08-0455. You can get them through Summit.

Pappy
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-06-2021, 01:57 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default Dry Sump Oil Cooling:

I've started the Dry Sump install. Yesterday, I got the Kevko pan installed. Lying on the creeper (car on QuickJacks (with stands!) it was a treat using the Fel-Pro snap-ups. Hats off to their design team for that. Not much to see - so no pics.

Now - on to the question at hand.

I know I included a cooler in my plans (and have one on the shelf).

Then, I just read (OK never trust the Internet) that because dry sump systems are so good at cooling the engine, that the engine has a hard time getting to temp.

So, it was suggested that running a separate cooler will not allow the engine to get up to temperature as quickly as it should.

Thoughts and experience welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-07-2021, 03:37 AM
redvetracr's Avatar
redvetracr redvetracr is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: midwestern USA
Posts: 1,589
My Photos: (119)
Default

you installed your Kevko pan, did you plug the rear main or the oil passage just above it? if your doing any real racing an oil cooler is in order if not you probably don`t need it. I talked with Bill Dailey about oil tanks, I asked "whose tank do you like" none he said but buy a Patterson, I used a 4gal that had two rows of oil/air separators with the holes pulled in the top baffle, Patterson told me they don`t do that anymore (too costly) he also said to add a third baffle which we did...that tank along with a number of other parts went with the car when I sold it, I was sorry to see them go but they paid my number for the car so I can`t cry about it. my tank was mounted behind the sheet metal bulkhead behind the pass seat area, beware where you mount yours, close to headers will absorb heat, too close to the driver the driver will get the heat...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-07-2021, 12:15 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Quote:
redvetracr:
...you installed your Kevko pan, did you plug the rear main or the oil passage just above it?

I believe I did. I forgot to check. It may mean I drop it to verify. Oh No - One step forward...
I can guarantee I ordered it and it arrived in January.

The intake manifold is still is off, so I think I might run an endoscope down the dizzy "Hole." I might be able to see it blocked off.
Or, pull the drain plug in the pan - and get "eyes-on" with the 'scope from there. Now, I just need to find that 'scope.

I've seen a couple of engines (online) with this setup:

I like the position - but of course that location is "at risk." I've the room with the engine moved aft - even with the radiator box. More so there, than at the firewall - or in the cockpit. And, save some $$ on the AN20 hose!

Off to look for the 'scope and check the plate is installed!

Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-07-2021, 02:51 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]

That view is from the lifter valley down the dizzy hole...

Haven't looked from the drain plug side on the pan - but don't think I need to. When I pushed the endo/bore scope deeper I heard the telltale, "dink, dink, dink" from -- the oil pan! ARGH!
1. Find the part
2. Pull the pan
3. Install the part
4. Reinstall the pan
There is some "fuzz" between the 4 and 6 o'clock position - will check that out too.

The saving grace ( I think) - this engine has never been fully oiled or run, so at least it not a mess like it could be.

Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-21-2021, 09:12 PM
phantomjock's Avatar
phantomjock phantomjock is offline
United States | Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Retired Again!
Posts: 1,493
My Photos: (695)
Default

Every Picture tells a story:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]

It was already installed. So, now I have a spare for the "spare" engine! Now, not to lose it.

Cheers - Jim
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:43 AM.
 


Design by: vBulletin Skins Zone
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.