Metal shavings on magnetic oil drain plug

That looks like the buildup on mag plugs after new build (jet engines). We call it "build debris" and it eventually dies off. I think it's pretty normal in a reciprocating engine though as everything is wearing against something else - it's all gotta go somewhere. I just think you normally wouldn't notice that crap in your oil :thumbs:
 
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Yes but, most turbines or jets and associated gear boxes have "Fuzz burn off" capability in the chip detection systems... Kinda wish we had that with our engines!!
 
Every gas turbine/jet engine oil system I've ever seen has chip detectors (magnetinc plugs).
We have a saying in the big airplane world. If you pull it out and it looks like a Christmas tree or the chips have serial numbers it's time to pull the engine. Anything else is OK.

If the oil filter(s) plug up you get a warning light or a message. Helicopters have a light on the transmission that comes on when the detector sees chips. Helicopter world that classifies as "OH SH**"
 
damoroso said:
Yes but, most turbines or jets and associated gear boxes have "Fuzz burn off" capability in the chip detection systems... Kinda wish we had that with our engines!!
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Hmmm... not heard of "fuzz burn off" before. Is that pretty new technology? I've been working on old crap for years...

TimAT said:
Every gas turbine/jet engine oil system I've ever seen has chip detectors (magnetinc plugs).
We have a saying in the big airplane world. If you pull it out and it looks like a Christmas tree or the chips have serial numbers it's time to pull the engine. Anything else is OK.

If the oil filter(s) plug up you get a warning light or a message. Helicopters have a light on the transmission that comes on when the detector sees chips. Helicopter world that classifies as "OH SH**"
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It's funny Tim, the P&W TF30 (F111 engine) didn't have mag plugs but we used to do SOAP samples every 10? 20? hours.
Gear teeth on an MCD is another way of saying you have an engine change...
 
No, the burn off technoloby isn't that new, H60's have it in their gear boxes. The chip detectors are shaped kind of like spark plugs, and if a chip bridges the gap, a small electrical charge burns it off. If it doesn't burn off, it sets the chip light. If I remember correctly, the GE T700's have the same chip system, but I might be wrong, it's been a while! Like Tim said, a chip light in a helo is really an "OH SH**!!" light! LOL

If I were getting that much material on the drain plug of my engine, I'd still consider a oil analysis. That way you'd know what the material was in the oil and that would give you a clue as to where it came from.
 
damoroso said:
No, the burn off technoloby isn't that new, H60's have it in their gear boxes. The chip detectors are shaped kind of like spark plugs, and if a chip bridges the gap, a small electrical charge burns it off. If it doesn't burn off, it sets the chip light. If I remember correctly, the GE T700's have the same chip system, but I might be wrong, it's been a while! Like Tim said, a chip light in a helo is really an "OH SH**!!" light! LOL

If I were getting that much material on the drain plug of my engine, I'd still consider a oil analysis. That way you'd know what the material was in the oil and that would give you a clue as to where it came from.
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Dave, I kind of disagree with you on that, the magnetic particles are obviously ferrous in nature, and bearing material is not.....so that means...

cam related, OR ring related....unless something totally weird in the oil pump?? no other ferrous is subject to wear....no??:cool:
 
Gene,

Actually I think you're making my point. Because we don't know what's in the gunk, it might make good sense and a good use of $25 to have an oil analysis done, so you know what material that is. At least that way, you might have a clue where to look next....
 
damoroso said:
Gene,

Actually I think you're making my point. Because we don't know what's in the gunk, it might make good sense and a good use of $25 to have an oil analysis done, so you know what material that is. At least that way, you might have a clue where to look next....
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It could tell the diff between the block and say timing chain I suppose...no??

crank?? what else is left??

ME being somewhat impatient, I would tear that sob down looking for clues and if nothing found....off goes the oil for testing....my approach anyway...

figgering that no matter what the test said, all that shit coming apart anyway....

not like it was one of Tim's airplanes there....:p:beer:
 
Something writen above reminded me, I noticed a DRAMATIC reduction in sludge on the magnetic plugs when I started sealing the inside of the blocks with Glyptol. Not chips mind you, just ferrous sludge. I believe the pores of cast iron blocks are filled with crap that is sealed in by the paint.

Obviously this has to be done just after the block is well boiled...
 
GT6Steve said:
Something writen above reminded me, I noticed a DRAMATIC reduction in sludge on the magnetic plugs when I started sealing the inside of the blocks with Glyptol. Not chips mind you, just ferrous sludge. I believe the pores of cast iron blocks are filled with crap that is sealed in by the paint.

Obviously this has to be done just after the block is well boiled...
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I'll agree on that. Cast is just that- cast. All those pits and valleys have junk in them that will get washed out sooner or later.

and Gene- YES, analysis CAN tell the difference between bearing material and iron, right down to how much silicone,manganese,bronze,copper,tin,or whatever else you might find in there. My diesel pickup is starting to trend high on bronze- up to .03 parts per million. So I've moved the oil change intervals from 12,000 to 10,000 miles.
 
I know the oil test can tell between metals, the question was more concerning if it could tell WHAT was wearing?? say the timing chains are made of one type steel call it ABC, and the cams are made of XYZ steel or some such, and the block is !@# type iron.....

is there any way to correlate that with a oil test???

the above is a curiosity type question as I think it's much easier to just tear the SOB down....

:huh:
 
mrvette said:
I know the oil test can tell between metals, the question was more concerning if it could tell WHAT was wearing?? say the timing chains are made of one type steel call it ABC, and the cams are made of XYZ steel or some such, and the block is !@# type iron.....

is there any way to correlate that with a oil test???

the above is a curiosity type question as I think it's much easier to just tear the SOB down....

:huh:
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A SOAP test certainly can. Spectrometric Oil Analysis (Program) can tell you how many ppm of what metals are present in your oil. If you know what all your components are made from, you can tell what's wearing. You start a trend graph from new build and plot all your samples. The SOAP results will be high for a little while with build wear debris and the engine "bedding in". Once it settles down, you sample regularly and watch your trend, when something starts climbing and veering away from the trend, you know something's on it's way out - whichever metal is veering away from the trend will tell you what component is failing. With aero engines, manufacturer info will dictate what time to replace the component, they may even reduce the time between samples so they can monitor the item more closely before rejecting it.

That what you mean?
 
Cute, so they CAN tell the diff between cam/chain/pump/gear/cyl wall wear, or even CRANK surfaces, somehow I doubt a huge variation in the metal needed for a particular application...

more applicable to major machinery than a mear car engine, I suppose, really....

:crutches::flash:
 
Gene,

Thanks for stopping by yesterday!

I know you'd rather just tear it down, cause you'd have to if it's broke to fix it anyway, and that makes sense.....if it's actually broke. The SOA is simply an early warning tool, if it isn't quite broke yet, or if it's just getting started, you may not even see it physically (depending on where the failure is) unless you pulled the entire engine down right? But you can see it with a SOA, it can help you see things before they've actually failed. If you pull it apart, depending on how far (if at all) some thing is near failure, you may not find it anyway unless you measure everything if it isn't obivous to the most casual observer! And if you don't find anything, you still have the time, parts, oil, etc., that cost way more than the silly SOA. The big plus on the SOA is that if it's normal wear in, or residual gunk in the engine, the SOA will show that, a tear down won't. Just do the SOA to start out with.....
 
Fun seeing your project there man, need to figger out what to do today, raining like hard today....wonder if I should work on the vette in the garage, or play lazy retarred guy ....

:crap::bonkers:
 
After I get some of the work stuff done today, it's back to cleaning parts!!! Good day for it, since it's a day for ducks outside!!!
 
Hi guys,

Apologies for bumping a really old thread, but alas I'm a fellow car enthusiast and Google brought me here, so I was wondering if I could find some advise.

I have recently had my engine rebuilt. It lasted two hours of very light load on the highway at 70mph. It ended up getting rod knock and when I checked the oil, I had a similar 'fluff' on the magnetic plug, but not so bad as the OP of this thread. The oil was however littered with metal specs. I took the car back to my engine builder and upon teardown the crank and bearings were all shot.

They rebuilt the motor by way of having the crank ground down and using their own choice of bearings (they didn't like the ACL bearings that I used on the first build). The rods were inspected for roundness and so was the engine girdle.

Anyway, so I've had the car for a month now. I've had some electrical gremlins and other issues meaning that I'm yet to take the car on the main road and give it some miles - it's only really idled on my driveway (While I tune the fuelling/ignition/vvt etc) and I've done a grand total of 1 mile just driving around my block. I changed the oil last week and it had the same amount of fluff or filings as the first time the engine failed. I changed the oil and filter, ran the motor for 2 hours, then drained again...it came out clean. I've given it a week of more tuning and some light driving around my block, drained the oil today and found some more (albeit very light) filings/black gunk on the drain plug. There was also a very small 'chip' (please see pics below) also. The motor runs like a champ at the moment, but then it also ran great last time until it spun a bearing. Graphogen assembly lube was used on the second build to act as a added security against failure.

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This chip is what bothers me most alarmingly...

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My main question goes to the OP I guess.....how did this turn out for you? Did it all work out well with the motor that had the filings, or did it end in tears?

Failing that, any good advice would be great. I know it's not a Vette (my car is a 2zz-ge powered Celica) but the concept is the same I guess :)
 
My engine is now at 3900 miles, runs fine, no problems. 2000 miles in 4 years is not much, maybe I should drive it more ....
I am going to change the oil soon and I'm going to update this thread then
 
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Thank you for your feedback sir.

Well, 3900 miles is 3700 miles more than what my motor held up to so I can take some heart from your positive experience.

Have you not changed the oil then for a good while?
 
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