mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
There are welders, then there are WELDERS, talking of the guy with the hood on....if you know what I mean.....
:trumpet::trumpet:
Some opinions on VBP upper control arms
- Thread starter FETorino
- Start date
There are welders, then there are WELDERS, talking of the guy with the hood on....if you know what I mean.....
:trumpet::trumpet:
BRUTAL64
Neanderthal
Breaking welds is very rare, but still a possibly.
I have to agree here with you, and it didn't even hurt.
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
Let's see. The T/A's are assembled with welds. The e-brake brackets are welded. The driveshaft is welded. The frame is welded. Frame brackets are welded. Motor mount horns are welded. Birdcage is welded.
Body is GLUED together.
Hell, I am afraid to sit in the car now.:sweat:
Body is GLUED together.
Hell, I am afraid to sit in the car now.:sweat:
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Let's see. The T/A's are assembled with welds. The e-brake brackets are welded. The driveshaft is welded. The frame is welded. Frame brackets are welded. Motor mount horns are welded. Birdcage is welded.
Body is GLUED together.
Hell, I am afraid to sit in the car now.:sweat:
THEN there is ME, who designed and had fabbed his own steering....
much less any other part on the car.....
nervous as a whore in church....
:surrender::surrender:
Twin_Turbo
Der Maulwurf
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2008
- Messages
- 7,579
And consider that all the factory welding is apparently done by a poorly trained monkey.....
BRUTAL64
Neanderthal
Let's see. The T/A's are assembled with welds. The e-brake brackets are welded. The driveshaft is welded. The frame is welded. Frame brackets are welded. Motor mount horns are welded. Birdcage is welded.
Body is GLUED together.
Hell, I am afraid to sit in the car now.:sweat:
I did see a broken weld on a tubular upper controll arm once. It actually broke in half. Of course, it was many years ago. Like I said rare, but has happened.:gurney:
Bird, you afraid?? Never could happen. :nuts:
But whenever I get in a Chevy I get nervous--never know what is going to happen.:harhar:
BRUTAL64
Neanderthal
turtlevette
The Turdle
Let's see. The T/A's are assembled with welds. The e-brake brackets are welded. The driveshaft is welded. The frame is welded. Frame brackets are welded. Motor mount horns are welded. Birdcage is welded.
Body is GLUED together.
Hell, I am afraid to sit in the car now.:sweat:
Ok you are being silly now.
1. T/As are boxes. Bushings are pressed in and held tight with a through bolt with a cotter pin. Even if they weren't welded its not going anywhere.
2. Broken e-brake weld never caused anyone to crash.
3. Driveshaft is pure shear with at least 6" of weld.
4. The lower control arm brackets are a concern, however there is still a good 10" of weld there. In most cases the welded tab fails progressively giving the driver time to notice something is wrong.
4. Again the frame is a box. Even if all the welds broke its not causing a catastrophic failure. The frame would simply become more flexable.
5. Motor mounts have a lot of weld, probably more than a foot on each one. Again a progressive failure situation. And what happens if one fails? The engine will slump down with the balancer/pully resting on the front crossmember. I'm pretty confident that will not cause a major wreck.
6. Birdcage is not a critical structural member of the car. A lot of welds would have to break before it gets loose.
On the other hand the tubular or box beam a-arm has about 1-2 inches of weld that is subject to big forces in about every direction. Water can get inside those tubes and start causing damage the first time you splash through a puddle and definitely from condensation, after all the thing is not airtight. The point of most concern on the VBP design is the welded connection to the cross bushing. This is the exact same situation as the rear strut failure i experienced.
Last edited:
Yellow73SB
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
- Messages
- 1,201
Thats why we don't drive in the rain
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Let's see. The T/A's are assembled with welds. The e-brake brackets are welded. The driveshaft is welded. The frame is welded. Frame brackets are welded. Motor mount horns are welded. Birdcage is welded.
Body is GLUED together.
Hell, I am afraid to sit in the car now.:sweat:
Ok you are being silly now.
1. T/As are boxes. Bushings are pressed in and held tight with a through bolt with a cotter pin. Even if they weren't welded its not going anywhere.
2. Broken e-brake weld never caused anyone to crash.
3. Driveshaft is pure shear with at least 6" of weld.
4. The lower control arm brackets are a concern, however there is still a good 10" of weld there. In most cases the welded tab fails progressively giving the driver time to notice something is wrong.
4. Again the frame is a box. Even if all the welds broke its not causing a catastrophic failure. The frame would simply become more flexable.
5. Motor mounts have a lot of weld, probably more than a foot on each one. Again a progressive failure situation. And what happens if one fails? The engine will slump down with the balancer/pully resting on the front crossmember. I'm pretty confident that will not cause a major wreck.
6. Birdcage is not a critical structural member of the car. A lot of welds would have to break before it gets loose.
On the other hand the tubular or box beam a-arm has about 1-2 inches of weld that is subject to big forces in about every direction. Water can get inside those tubes and start causing damage the first time you splash through a puddle and definitely from condensation, after all the thing is not airtight. The point of most concern on the VBP design is the welded connection to the cross bushing. This is the exact same situation as the rear strut failure i experienced.
UHH oh, them been on my car for some 15 years now, and I drove through deep 6" of water the other day....never thought of them rusting like that...that SUX.....and I NOW aware of that box steel problem from getting water in there....as the hook was left outside to get rain on it....the boom got water in it...when we knocked it down again for final storage...it drained water....OOOOPS.....left it in the sunlight for a while...
VERY uncool....
:cussing:
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
So, you mean SOME applications.:stirpot:
What would YOU engineer to make the strut rod more inherently safe?
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Jim got a good point there, wish I didn't toss my stock struts now....but they gone a long time ago....
maybe I need look at the VBPs on the car now....
I would take the stock strut rod, and get a machinest to cut threads on each end of it cut off, use the stock rubber bushings, and the center link from VBP.....case closed....as I say.....
the stockers are one piece cast...and have less stress than that urethane does on the VBP design....
I gotta go pull one of them apart now to check the rust situation out....
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
Perhaps a killer "street duty" Heims joint IS the answer here?
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
Back to the a-arms. If the tubular ones are heavier, and the stock design is "proven", why change? What is the advantage, if at all?
More caster. These cars (Impala's :nuts were designed with skinny bias plys.
were designed with skinny bias plys.
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
More caster. These cars (Impala's :nuts
But that can be solved with the stock arms. Correct?
Not without a bunch of shims or slotting the cross-shaft.
The popular idea is that you can slot the cross-shaft 1/4 inch and get the additional 2.5 degrees. This is wrong. The cross shaft is about 10 inches from the lower arm pivot, an additional 2.5 degrees is almost double that. If you were to slot the arm 1/2 inch, you would seriously weaken the cross-shaft. There isn't much metal there:twitch:
The popular idea is that you can slot the cross-shaft 1/4 inch and get the additional 2.5 degrees. This is wrong. The cross shaft is about 10 inches from the lower arm pivot, an additional 2.5 degrees is almost double that. If you were to slot the arm 1/2 inch, you would seriously weaken the cross-shaft. There isn't much metal there:twitch:
big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
So what about just making a custom cross shaft? Problems still?
BRUTAL64
Neanderthal
Actually, Gulstrand has a templete for moving the upper control arm crossshaft bolts forward and down. Better than slotting the crossshaft.
Actually, Gulstrand has a templete for moving the upper control arm crossshaft bolts forward and down. Better than slotting the crossshaft.
I think you want to move them down and to the back. Not sure how easy this is to do with the engine in place however. Might be easier to make cross shafts like Bird suggested.