Anyone try EQ heads? Budget build.

macx

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Planning basically a top end + cam upgrade on an anemic 81 L81 190 hp 350.

Budget is limited.

Have read about the Vortecs as a good economical upgrade, started researching them. Read a number of impressive builds with them.

Then ran across the EQ heads, and this PHR article.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0611phr_vortec_small_block_350_chevy_engine/index.html

They use a little more expensive version with stainless valves, good seals, etc. Also a 180 runner size. No pictures, so not entirely sure those really are Vortecs - but might be basically Vortec style but using studs and
guide plates instead of guided tip rockers, and maybe Vortec style intake. The intake used in the article is made to fit both Vortec and conventional style heads, so not sure.

I'm looking for something more in the 170 runner size, and with the 1.94 & 1.50 valves - I guess the ones in the article are available with 2.02 & 1.60's.

Then I found this source for them. I noted they list both "Vortec" heads with just the 64cc chamber, and also "350 Chevy" heads with a variety of comb chamber sizes, studs & guideplates (I think these were basically what was used in the PHR article), and either the 1.94 or 2.02 valve combo.

http://www.rogersperformance.com/EQ.htm

These are right on par cost wise with oem Vortecs, but per the PHR article have improved exhaust flow over oem Vortecs and extra iron to help avoid the exhaust valve seat cracking that can occur in oem Vortecs.

The flow numbers are pretty good for a mild engine, basically on par with oem Vortecs and just a tick behind Performers, etc, with a little better exhaust flow and ratio to intake than oem Vortecs.

http://www.rogersperformance.com/EQFlow.htm

Just wondering if anyone's had experience with them?

I guess they're a popular sanctioned upgrade oem Vortec replacement in IMCA claimer classes, so that speaks well for them.

I'd also checked out the Summit 170cc heads, as well as the RHS and Dart Vortec iron replacements. The Summit's I found have a similar comparatively somewhat low exhaust to intake flow ratio / %, and the RHS & Dart heads are beautifully done but of course $400+ more, as are the Edelbrock EQ's.
 
Haven't heard anything about them. I'm a little skeptical of that. Looking through my handy Jegs catalog though I think the Edlebrock "E street" series would be a good buy as well. They're listed for $900/pr, complete assembly, which puts them more or less on par with the "who-the-hell-are-they heads" you're considering when you factor in the assembled price. Not saying they're a bad company, we all started somewhere, but ebay is full of deals on products from companies that only lasted a couple years. At least with Edlebrock, we all know the name and I think you would have far more recourse should something go south with the heads. I mean you build the heads yourself and even if you do everything perfectly, if you have a failure EQ will point the finger at Manley and they'll point the finger at Comp and everyone will be pointing the finger back at whoever assembled the heads.
Just sayin'.
 
Yeah, never heard of them then saw that article in PHR.

Did alittle more research, supposedly they've been in business for a good
while but apparently more as a replacement cast iron head situation than
a performance oriented head.

I think for the equivalent cost of a stock oem Vortec head these have a couple advantages for the same price, and lots of folks use oem Vortecs
with pretty good results, so just wondering about these strictly on a
comparison basis with the stockers.

There is an article here that brags them up for IMCA claimer classes that
didn't say a whole lot about them but did mention them favorably.

http://www.circletrack.com/techarti...gine_tips/oil_fiter_cutting_vortec_heads.html

At the Rogers place the 170 runner Vortec replacements are under $650 a set assembled, but of course that's with pretty much oem type stock valve train parts.
 
Patriot heads are a little cheaper than Edelbrock RPM heads, both aluminum and assembled ... I think Patriot heads are like $800, Edelbrock $990... haven't checked the catalogs recently but you should be able to find the RPM heads for under $1000/pair assembled.

If the budget is limited and your stock heads are not cracked: have you considered upgrading your pistons and leave the heads alone? With flat tops you should get the CR close to 9:1. (assuming 4" bore, piston .020" down in the hole, .040" gasket, 76cc chambers)

Flat tops are cheap, if your bores are ok you only need a bottle brush and new rings - if the bores are not ok then you need to fix those anyways.

When you say "budget", keep in mind a set of good pushrods is $80, head bolts another $50.
To swap the cam you've got to get the timing cover off, to get that off you drop the oil pan.... another $30 for the FelPro oil pan gasket and by that time you'll probably be annoyed with the timing chain cover so you're looking at 2pc design covers.... timing chain.... well... add another $70 for a good timing chain set .. one thing leads to another....

This reminds me of 2005 when I started looking into options for a little more power.... :footmouth:
 
Oh, yes, have been thru that a number of times. All the pieces add up,
that's why I am looking for a cost effective head solution.

Unless I find the cylinders are bad when I get the heads off, the shortblock is going to stay as is. Doesn't burn oil, etc. Haven't taken a compression or leakdown test yet, will do that before I pull the heads.

By the time I get this whole project together after I retire, I'll likely not be putting over 50k miles on it max before I could very well be too old to go traipsing around the country any more.

BTW I have discovered the EQ heads in that PHR article are not Vortec style in any regard, and have a (sort of old style?) D shaped comb chamber. They were the 180 runners anyway, and I need 170's, so will stick with Vortec style heads.

The EQ Vortecs at Rogers are the oem 64cc chamber size, and their flow numbers (altho not on the same flow bench, etc) are just a tad above oem Vortecs, which will be just fine. OEM Vortecs flow plenty for what I need, but the EQ's supposedly have a little better exhaust to intake flow ratio and more meat around the exhaust valve to help avoid seat cracking. And assembled with oem stock type parts (no higher end SS valves, etc) they go for $317 ea, very comparable to oem Vortecs. I've looked at every Vortec style head I could find, incl Patriots, Summit, RHS, Dart, oem and hi flo Vortecs, and these were the best price by a couple hundred except for the Summit heads but after getting their flow numbers find they also have not the best exhaust to intake flow ratio. And as long as the intake flow is exactly what I feel I need for my mild cam and low highway rpm, higher flow would probly do more harm than good at my low rpm range, so no point in spending any more for higher flow. And the TB efi I already have (budget in play again) supports a max of 325 hp, again no point in spending any more for more flow. The one possible alternative is if I could find a good used set of 1.9 intake Performers for ~$600 or less. But they actually flow a little more than I need at lower rpm, and don't want to leave any torque on the table at 1600-2200 rpm. When I built the engine for my daily driver, I shopped used stuff for 3 years. New stuff was oil pump, timing set, gaskets of course, rings, bearings (I disassembled the 30k mile shortblock and cleaned and freshend it up). All else was good lo miles used. And, incidentally, that was with a set of low miles 1.9 intake Performers for $600 but that took some prolonged shopping to find that price and that was at least 6 years ago, and close enuf so I didn't have to pay shipping.

With the stock deck height likely to be .025 to maybe .030, and the stock 9.9cc dish in the oem pistons, an .040 head gasket and the 64cc heads the calculators tell me I'll end up in the very low 9.xx-1 compr ratio area. About the same as if I put in 4 valve relief flat tops and left the stock heads, which I've read are prone to cracking in the exhaust seats and are bottom of the ladder on performance. Would have to be rebuilt anyway. If I can leave the pistons alone, those EQ heads wouldn't cost me any more than pistons/rings and rebuilding the heads.

With the short cam not allowing much compression pressure to bleed off, that pretty much shoots using 87 or even 89 octane even if I would swap pistons and get quench unless I really drop the compression ratio and then I wouldn't have any more torque even with quench than if I leave the dished pistons and run 91. For 50k miles, I'm about breaking even leaving the pistons alone if I can and running 91 vs 87, even if I could.

I am going to change cams (inexpensive flat tappet) and timing chain, but otherwise won't even pull the shortblock apart if I don't find any cylinder or ring problems. Probly stick in a new stock oil pump while the pan is off, and absolutely a decent timing set, but no fancy 2 piece cover! Only going to do this one time. Will be way too old to do any more major work on it in pretty short order. :surrender: Doing this much will be my last major car project.
 
Here's a site that sells them direct, along with a lot of other stuff and
different brands of hi po heads.

His listing explains it at least to the point there are Vortec style heads, and
non-Vortec style (I verified that with the vendor).

His Vortec style heads go for $317 ea assembled with standard type valve gear.

http://www.rogersperformance.com/EQ.htm
 
So I'm curious. You seem really stuck on that 170cc runner. I understand you don't want to give up any torque but I really don't see a noticeable loss with a 180cc runner, like the heads you mentioned earlier. You also mentioned the L-81, which I know all too well. What are you planning on doing cam-wise? You said you didn't want to really go in to the short block, aside from the cam but you are looking for a boost. I'm just trying to get a grasp of what you're expecting out of the car. Are you going to need to retain all the factory equipment, such as smog, comp and carb? What about the cat?
Sounds like you know enough about this so I'm not trying to step on toes but you mentioned you think you're going to stick with vortec heads now. You are aware that you'll need both centerbolt valve covers and a vortec style intake, right? You said your budget is limited, but for what it sounds like you want to do the factory intake should be plenty, especially if you don't have to shell out an extra $200 for a vortec style. Not only that, but you'll either have to put in guide plates or switch out to self aligning rockers. All this makes those EQ or Edelbrock heads look down right cheap.
 
OK, I reread your post (#5) and I'm trying to make out what you have going on but I feel like I came in half way through the conversation. I also rechecked the site you listed for the EQ heads and I'm guessing you're looking at the ones listed as CC170BA2. If I'm reading this right, they have the Vortec style chambers but will accept earlier manifolds, valve covers and have guide plates. Is that right?
But getting back to post #5, what is a 1.9 Performer? Do I understand that you pulled the motor at 30k miles and freshened it up? How many miles since? I really want to know what cam you're thinking of.
 
It's not loss of torque, it's loss of torque - or more accurately having a balance of making the best torque - at low rpm while still having some mid range performance improvements. From everything I've read and experienced over quite a few years of building various brands of street performance engines from mild to wild, the 170 size runners in general are more likely to help build better torque in lower rpm ranges because of better flow velocity than larger runners.

And having read many articles of builds with Vortec heads shows they do build good low rpm torque and still will support a pretty decent hp level which, of course, is also dependent on the cam and intake manifold and the other parts of any combo. Being I'm on a budget, I therefore have concluded that Vortec style heads are a very good combination of relatively low cost and performance in my desired rpm range. I'm sure there are other heads that can more or less match their lower rpm, such as the RHS Vortec style heads, but all those I've looked at are at least $300 more.

It is my understanding that those particular EQ "BA" Vortecs do accept valve covers and intakes as you mention. Valve covers aren't a huge item as they can be had used from a salvage yard or individual at reasonable cost.

As I'm going to upgrade the intake manifold, anyway, the cost difference between Vortec and non-Vortec intakes isn't excessive and, there again, with a little shopping a used intake can possibly be found. If not, there are aftermarket units available with dual bolt patterns if a Vortec style would happen to be required.

I am going to also upgrade to roller style rockers, and there are basic guided tip rollers available at reasonable cost compared to conventional style by the time you add in guideplates and hardened pushrods. Not so much for increased high rpm horsepower as a reduction in friction and heat and more accurate ratios.

"1.9 Performers" are Edelbrock Performer heads in the 1.9 intake valve size. I built a Ford 351 Lightning (Windsor) motor a few years ago using mostly used parts in good shape at good prices that I gathered over nearly 3 years of shopping. I found a set of them for that engine at $600 which was a competitive price to oem GT40P heads (comparable to oem Vortecs for Chevy) and were a comparative performance upgrade. The 30k mile thing was that I freshened the shortblock (which reportedly had low miles but one can never be sure of a used motor without checking it and I wanted to closely inspect it before I put it in the vehicle anyway so replaced rings and bearings and thoroughly cleaned the block as it had been sitting open with no intake or heads for awhile) before I built the motor, and have put about 30k miles on it since without problem. Anyway, if I could find a similar deal for a set of 1.9 intake (valve size) Performer heads I'd consider them in lieu of the EQ heads. That's the best possibility of finding good used heads at a reasonable cost as they've been around a long time and there are a lot of them in use which increases the chances of finding a good used set at a competitive price.

About the pistons, etc. I plan on a compression and leakdown check before I pull the stock heads, and if I don't discover any problems there or in the cyl walls after I remove the heads, I will leave the shortblock alone other than a new stock oil pump as they're relatively inexpensive. The cost of replacing the pistons and rings along with the machine work would still not allow me to use 87 octane without staying close to the stock low compression ratio, esp with a short duration cam which wouldn't allow some of the compression pressure to bleed off to help avoid detonation, so would not justify the cost from a gas mileage perspective. If I can use the existing pistons/rings and avoid the machine work cost, it will go a long way to offsetting the cost of 91 octane over 87 or 89 octane over the probable max of 50k miles I'll be driving the car after I retire before I get too old to drive safely. If I'd go to flat top pistons which would be better for quench and for 87 or 89 octane, I'd have to go to larger comb chamber heads which are also more expensive. And I do want a head upgrade as one of the major improvements. I can achieve a low 9 compression ratio with the stock pistons and the 64cc Vortec style heads with .039 head gaskets. That should run fine on 91 octane while allowing a compression boost over stock and more advanced timing which will help torque production, and maybe a little better mileage as a side benefit.

My overall build plan is this. As I plan on taking a number of extended road trips around the country, I'm planning the engine for good gas mileage. Low highway rpm is a recognized way of achieving this. But to improve 1st gear throttle response, a deeper overall first gear ratio would be of great help. Therefore the stock 3 speed TH 350 with it's high internal 1st gear ratio and no overdrive, along with the oem 2.87 gears, can be considerably improved upon both in 1st gear and on the highway. I'm therefore planning on a relatively low cost but internally improved 200-4R to get a lower internal 1st gear and an overdrive. The Level 1 at Bowtie Overdrives has a number of internal improvements that help avoid the common problems of those units and will support my intended engine horsepower while still being relatively inexpensive as far as performance transmissions go. Same for their Level 1 lockup converter in the lower 2k stall range which will also help response off-idle in 1st gear. With the gearing in the 200-4R, I'll switch to 3.31 differential gears which will further help 1st gear - I have to rebuild the diff anyway. (I do all my own work) That will get me about a 25% overall ratio reduction in first gear. With the .67 OD in the 200-4R I still reduce my highway rpm about 400 with the 3.31 gears. So significant improvements in 1st gear and in highway rpm. That combo will result in 1600 rpm at 58 mph for two lane roads, and 2200 at 78 for freeways. Low highway rpm is a major factor in new performance cars with very high horsepower getting surprisingly good highway mileage, the new Vette's being a great example. Of course all the sophisticated electronic engine management and efi make those engines perform well in a very wide rpm range and allow them to cruise at low rpm and still run smoothly and efficiently.

So that rpm range establishes the torque curve goal for my engine, which I am trying to build as part of the overall powertrain combination at the most cost effective price point. Also, I would prefer to avoid taking the max effective rpm over the low 5k range to minimize stress on the stock shortblock and hopefully make it last. And I won't be doing much hard driving anyway, so don't figure on needing a lot of horsepower at higher rpm.

That is what has lead me to try to optimize the torque curve in the low rpm ranges as a first priority, while still getting improved torque and throttle response from off-idle up into the mid rpm ranges, up to around or slightly over the 5k rpm point. And I feel the 170 intake port size will best meet those goals. The EQ Vortec heads should meet those parameters with a low comparative cost. I don't want an engine that will not have good throttle response and run smoothly at those rpm ranges becaue it's focusing on high horsepower and built for too high of an effective rpm range.

I definitely plan on efi having experienced the improvement in lower rpm throttle response, driveability, and fuel economy of efi. I've worked with efi to a fair degree having successfully modified the eec-iv system in my 89 Lincoln Mark VII LSC to work with the modified 351 Windsor I built and installed. And a number of years ago, I had bought a Holley 670 cfm 2bbl TB setup I used on a small block 3/4 ton conversion van. I was amazed at the improved throttle response and mileage over the 4bbl carb it replaced, and (a budget consideration) I still have that system so plan to use it. I have found thru researching it that Holley now has a closed loop kit for it with an 02 sensor which will automatically maintain a good air/fuel ratio for highway driving, and I have an Innovate wide band which will help in tuning idle and WOT. The Pro Jection has a small control box in the passenger compartment with knobs (dashpots) for adjusting air/fuel ratio on cold start, idle, WOT, and cruise. I found I had to tweak it occasionally to keep a good tune with weather changes so the wide band should be a great help to optimize the idle and WOT tune and to keep an eye on that and the closed loop cruise setting on a daily basis. In stock form it supports 275 hp, but I have found that larger 85 lb injectors (80 stock) are still available at reasonable cost and that I can use the built in pressure regulator to increase fuel pressure from the stock 15 to 18 psi. That should increase the horsepower it will support to around 325 and the 670cfm airfow is sufficient for that too, so that is one of the basic criteria I will use in selecting my engine build parameters and goal.

As far as exhaust goes, I'll likely leave the existing small tube factory headers as small primary tubes are better for low rpm torque. If I happen to find a better performing (probly used) set but still with small tubes that's an option, but don't feel with a low rpm torque curve that new ones would be as cost effective of an upgrade as the other items. I'll replace the single pipe portion of the exhaust with a larger diameter section of pipe, and use a single high flow true 3" in/out performance cat which can be had new for well under $100. A larger diameter single generally works better for low and mid range torque than duals, and those minor mods would be the least expensive way to improve exhaust flow in my desired rpm range.

Cam. I've worked a lot with cams in various performance builds at various rpm ranges and done a lot of research on the topic in general. I went into the Comp Cams website and used their online CamQuest program with the embedded dyno program as a good starting point. Before I finalize my cam choice, I will run it thru Desktop Dyno for the closest possible engine parameter input. However, using my basic engine combo info in that Comp program, including Vortec style heads (they have the 1.94 valve size as an option in the head category so am assuming that's for Vortec style heads), and the other major factors such as a basic level dual plane performance intake (a Performer style for rpms up to 5500), 9-1 compression, small tube headers, and efi, CamQuest came up with several suggested options for cams. Running those thru the dyno portion of the program narrowed it down to 3 choices that maximize torque between 1500 and 3000 and are efi and computer compatible (the "computer" being the Pro Jection closed loop control with 02 sensor). Going flat tappet to avoid the cost of a roller setup, I started out looking at the XE262 cam having read several builds highly recommending that for a moderate street engine even over the 268 which was regarded as generally producing less torque in the lower rpm ranges altho it is an excellent cam for a little bit higher rpm engine. Then studying the cam specs on those 3, I set up a spreadsheet listing the specs incl 050 duration, valve timing events, LSA, etc. I then looked at comparable cams from other mfgs such as Lunati and Crane and added them into the spreadsheet, altho of course only with hp & torque results from the Comp cams from their Camquest & dyno program.

The 3 Comp Cams best matched to my goals so far are:

XE 256 with 212-218 @ 050, 112 LSA, 108 Int CL, intake close at 36 ABC, tq peak at 3500, hp peak at 5000. Similar peak torque to the other 2, 15 hp more at peak than the other 2, 10 lbs less torque at 1500 compared to the other 2. Effective rpm range of 1200 to 5200.

252 XFI with 208-217 @ 050, 113 LSA, 109 Int CL, intake close at 33 ABC, tq peak at 3500, hp peak at 4500. Similar peak torque to the other 2, 15 hp less at peak than the 256 but same as the 249, 10 lbs more torque at 1500 compared to the XE 256 and similar to the 249. Effective rpm range of 1300 to 5300.

XE 249 with 206-212 @ 050, 112 LSA, 108 Int CL, intake close at 33.5 ABC, tq peak at 3500, hp peak at 4500. Similar peak torque, 15 hp less at peak than the 256 but same as the 252, 10 to 15 lbs more torque at 1500 than the 262 and similar to the 252. Effective rpm range of 1000 to 5000.

Pretty much a toss up at this point, will try them later in Desktop Dyno to see if the results stay about the same. So far, the 252 XFI has the lower rpm torque peak like the 249, comparable torque at 1500 to the 249 which is marginally better than the 262, and a little better effective rpm range like the 262.

I hope that adequately explains my overall goal and how I hope to achieve it. I'll be 68 or so by the time I get all this put together, and am looking for a nice cruiser with good mileage and still a little exitement but not too intense for an old man. And I've got my 1150 BMW bike for a little fun. I've had my fun with hot cars over the years with things like a 426 hemi which eventually was quite thoroughly modified, a moderately warmed up 375 hp 396 SS Camaro and 440 six pack Challenger RT, and several other more moderate but still fun rides.

Budget concerns for the engine stem from the fact that many of the major systems on this old of a car need upgrade to make it more than just a weekend toy, so don't want to spend all my available resources just on the engine and ignore the other
upgrades that need to be made to make it a well balanced overall good driving and decently performing car. I also hope to upgrade to stainless O ring brakes (the rear calipers are shot anyway) maybe with a hydro boost, a 6 link for the rear along with a new composite 330 or 360 lb spring, new shocks, rack and pinion steering making my own brackets and using the typical 82 Grand Am rack, either rebuilding the front suspension or going to a monoleaf depending on the ride quality, and of course new tires. So have plenty of places to spend my available money besides the engine.
 
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You certainly seem like you've done your research so I'll just patiently follow along. I still don't think you would lose much with 180 runners but the price on those EQ heads do look attractive for what you're trying to do. Since you're going with TBI, I have to assume that either smog tests are not a concern or your state has a waiver program. At least here, in idiot NV, I couldn't replace my L-81 with a brand new Ecotech engine and be legal (well, in Las Vegas anyway). The state mandates the car be in original configuration, smog test results be damned.
As for the diff, you really should talk that over more with Mike (Tracdogg) or Gary (GTR1999) to see what their thoughts are on it. I understand that you want to do as much yourself but these D44s have some very specific but known issues and now you're talking about doubling up on torque. Last thing you would want to do is get it all finished and take your first cruise only to be left on the side of the road picking up chunks of ring and pinion gears. Maybe at least have them check the specs. There's a bunch of variation in the castings. One can be damn near bulletproof just off the assembly line and the very next one can be a ticking time bomb, no matter what you do to it.
 
I do love my research :) That's a big part of the fun of doing a project, and I've found thru experience the more I know and consider the options the happier I am with it when I "get 'er done".

Besides, the more details I throw out, the less likely somebody is to try to pick me apart :tomato:, not that it doesn't happen sometimes. And I still am learning things and at least try to keep an open mind. But of course, anyone as old as I already am I think has the inalienable right to be at least a little opinionated. :)

MO has little in the way of smog controls in areas away from the major cities, altho they do look to see if the air pump is still hooked up, and the cat is in place. So not a problem there.

I hope (also) to move out of MO when I retire (I don't think I'll get bored for awhile!), and if I can swing it would be moving to the Casper, WY, area, and will (again) self-build our own house if my health holds. Our best friends from way back live there, and we'd also be closer to my wife's home town in SE Montana. Also the 2nd least expensive state to retire in, and having spent my first 40 mostly in MN I like the climate better in WY than in Swampeast Misery - summer (godawful heat & humidity) or winter (cold rain & mud).

And the most of the traveling we hope to do is around the West, incl the mountains. I've been around there quite a bit, but my wife hasn'tseen a lot of it, and there's a lot of scenery between Glacier Park and Carlsbad Caverns in NM and between Denver and the Pacific Coast Highway! And it's a lot closer to all that than SE MO. And WY has no smog checks at all, at least in that area.

That's typical beauracratic idiocy not to allow a newer and cleaner running engine in an older car, or even modifications to an engine (or drivetrain) becuz many upgrades result in a cleaner engine AND oftentimes one that is more efficient. About all that proves is that they don't know what the H they're talking about, and are too D lazy to figure it out. About as bad as MO beauracracy - I think the MO citizens would be better off if they told most of the beauracrats to stay home and just mail them their checks than come to work and screw things up for everybody!

Thanks for that tip on the diff! I've done Chrysler 8-3/4's, Dana 60's, Ford 8.8's and Chevy 8 bolt, but I don't believe a D44. Never had to take one back apart for any problems, either :thumbs: But there is always a first time!
Obviously better to go into it eyes wide than shut.

It'll be some time (probly around 3 yrs) before I can retire and get to work on all this at least as far as actual wrenching (laid off right now so time to research, but got to save the pennies till I find that next job - I'm into Quality Control management on new power plant projects and that work has slowed the last year) so have plenty of time to research and start gathering parts, and I definitely will do more digging on the D44.
Thanks for the heads up!

I'm fairly new here, but have seen lots of references to GTR1999 who has a very good rep on this forum, so will see if I can pry loose some info on those critical issues. I've checked prices on rebuilts and Ouch! Could do a lot of the things on my list with the money I'd save DIY.

Cheers!
 
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