Brake/Fuel line overhaul

[denpo]

I personally don't see all the fuss about oem hose and braided line.
Use solid tubing for pressure and good fuel rated hose as the oem did.
The 3/8" line has zero pressure and the 1/4" line 2 psi on a bad day.
Your only concern is whether it becomes hardened and cracks. It will last many years. If worried get a SAEJ1527 rated hose.
If you want pretty, cover it with some chrome spiral wrap.
And the return line will also help keep the fuel pressure more constant. No need not to use it.

I personally don't see braided hoses has a fuss but rather a practical choice.
I'm not going the braided way actually, I'm rather going the non-rubber way. For much less of the price of a solid tubing line I can build myself a teflon line.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but this stuff would outlast the rubber, right?
Plus I can make a line from the tank outlet to the carb in one section, no need for those rubber hoses at the junction.

 

[denpo]

Ok guy, here's some update and yet some more questions.
I received my new fuel pump (can't upload pics at work). It sports a NPT input port, a NTP ouput port and 2 provision for 2 additionnal ouput port (return?).
Those are non threaded hole blocked just before the pump bowl, so I would have to drill the bottom of the hole and NTP tap it.
Now I've been looking for a fuel pressure regulator, and found two types, with return line and without.
The use of regulator with return line it pretty straightforward. Thing is, those bastards are quiet pricey. OTOH regulators without return are much more affordable.

So here's my view on how this should be used, you tell me if I'm right :
fuel pump->inline filter->fuel regulator->card line feed.
My understanding is that the regulator ensure that the pressure past itself will be kept at a constant level, leaving all the excess pressure at bay. Then, having a return line starting from the pump bowl back to the tank would deal with the pressure excess. This return line would have to be smaller that the main out to card line.
Do I have it right?
If so, how restricted should be the return line to be sure I would not eat up too much pressure before the fuel reach the regulator.

 

[denpo]

forget about my previous post, found a mallory regulator with bypass at good price off Ebay.

 

[damoroso]

Denpo,

Bypass regulators are typically for electric fuel pumps. You don't need one, though you could use one if you wanted to. Here's the Holley I used for my car. According to Holley, it's the right choice for my mechanical pump. Make sure you run a gauge so you know what your set at...:thumbs:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-12-803/

 

[denpo]

Almost done!
I now have a brand new mechanical fuel pump with 1/4 fittings.
A used mallory 4309 pressure regulator with bypass
I now just need a fuel filter, and I'm ready to order all the plumbing.
My best-for-the-bang option IMHO is to use the standard GF652/GF481 filter.
What kind of thread/fitting it requires? I can't find the info on the web.
Does somebody know?

 

[DC3]

My best-for-the-bang option IMHO is to use the standard GF652/GF481 filter. What kind of thread/fitting it requires? I can't find the info on the web. Does somebody know?

Lars has a paper on making fuel lines that references the GF481 filter. I don't know if his papers are posted on the web anywhere but if not you can email him at [email protected].

The 481 filter uses an o-ring fitting. See post #9 in this thread:
http://www.vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3763

I used 5105 fittings from Pure Choice Motorsports which convert from the O-ring fitting for the filter to the 3/8" inverted flare fitting I used when making up my fuel line.

Here's a link to the Pure Choice fitting. It is the fitting in the upper right of the photo: http://www.purechoicemotorsports.com...rod/prd184.htm

DC

 

[denpo]

My best-for-the-bang option IMHO is to use the standard GF652/GF481 filter. What kind of thread/fitting it requires? I can't find the info on the web. Does somebody know?

Lars has a paper on making fuel lines that references the GF481 filter. I don't know if his papers are posted on the web anywhere but if not you can email him at [email protected].

The 481 filter uses an o-ring fitting. See post #9 in this thread:
http://www.vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3763

I used 5105 fittings from Pure Choice Motorsports which convert from the O-ring fitting for the filter to the 3/8" inverted flare fitting I used when making up my fuel line.

Here's a link to the Pure Choice fitting. It is the fitting in the upper right of the photo: http://www.purechoicemotorsports.com...rod/prd184.htm

DC

Awesome, thanks for the info.
They looks very similar to the fitting I need to connect my hydroboost to my Borgeson.

 

[denpo]

Hey guys, a little thread revival just to let you know who is the idiot of the day.
Me of course.
Just received most of my fittings and teflon line.
First thing I tried was putting those 1/4 NPT to -6AN adapter on my brand new mechanical pump. The fitting was barely getting in, so I decided to give it a little torque... and ended up cracking the pump housing.:crap::suicide:
Oh well, time to find another pump... *sigh*
Look like I'm learning fuel line making the hard, long spiky stick in the ass way.:hissyfit:

 

[68/70Vette]

I also think that the braided hose is not a good idea for brake lines. I used stainless steel brake lines on both my C3's. I also ordered the stainless steel brake lines with stainless fittings. With stainless steel fittings, it seems that it's recommended to use new brass coupling blocks.

My gas lines are stainless with AN fittings. I ordered them with AN from In-Line Tube. This is to avoid rubber hoses and band clamps to mate to the ss gas lines. I wanted to avoid rubber hoses and band clamps everywhere in my gas lines in the event I wanted to go to a high pressure gas line for a fuel injection set up.

For fuel pump/filter/shut off valve gas line fitting in the rear of the car, I used CuNiFer (Cunifer) alloy lines. It's a copper, nickel, steel alloy. I understand it's used on some European cars (Volvo). The advantages are that it's easy to bend and flare like copper, but it's harder than copper. The nickel steel components give the tubing it's harder than copper characteristic, and the nickel and copper makes it rustproof. It's not all that pretty. It has the brownish color of oxidized copper, but with a purplish overtone. These lines are under the car back at the rear and can't be seen. It sure bends and double flares nicely. Google cunifer if you're interested. The US distributor is in Maine.

 

[MYBAD79]

I used 8 AN for supply (1/2") - That's overkill for my engine but it fit the tank outlet pretty good ... pushed it onto the hard line and clamped it down with a SS hose clamp

I used 6 AN for the return, again, it fit the line at the tank

That's strange, I measured my tank line, outlet is 3/8 OD, return and vapor are 1/4 OD. Wouldn't I rather need 6an and 4an an instead of 8an and 6an?

I'm sure I ordered 6AN and 8AN, I remember it fit the existing hard line at the tank without modifications and only two SS hose clamps - I know hose clamps are not very popular but keep in mind the stock setup was rubber hose with some spring steel clamps.... even worse...

No reply on my last post, well, I guess people are getting tired of me asking questions.

:lol:

for some strange reason I must have missed this all together....



If the NPT adapter is a 90 degree ellbow and you can't get it to line up into the direction you need it, it is better to cut the thread with a NPT tap rather than trying to get another half turn out of the NPT... it won't work and as you see it can crack the pump... NPT is a tapered thread, there is quiet some force on it when you tighten (overtighten) it....

 

[denpo]

I used 8 AN for supply (1/2") - That's overkill for my engine but it fit the tank outlet pretty good ... pushed it onto the hard line and clamped it down with a SS hose clamp

I used 6 AN for the return, again, it fit the line at the tank

That's strange, I measured my tank line, outlet is 3/8 OD, return and vapor are 1/4 OD. Wouldn't I rather need 6an and 4an an instead of 8an and 6an?

I'm sure I ordered 6AN and 8AN, I remember it fit the existing hard line at the tank without modifications and only two SS hose clamps - I know hose clamps are not very popular but keep in mind the stock setup was rubber hose with some spring steel clamps.... even worse...

I confirm, just received the hose two day ago (all AN6) and they fit perfectly return and vapor line. Main line is bigger, I gonna have to find a with to make it fit. You was right.
Postponed the purchase of all this way too long, kinda lost track of my goals.

No reply on my last post, well, I guess people are getting tired of me asking questions.

:lol:

for some strange reason I must have missed this all together....



If the NPT adapter is a 90 degree ellbow and you can't get it to line up into the direction you need it, it is better to cut the thread with a NPT tap rather than trying to get another half turn out of the NPT... it won't work and as you see it can crack the pump... NPT is a tapered thread, there is quiet some force on it when you tighten (overtighten) it....

Just learned that yesterday, I did actually crack the pump. After reviewing the damage with my mechanic tonight, look like the pump port thread was not cut deep enough. Lesson learned.
I think I'm gonna stick to my stock pump for now, I think I can manage to keep it and still have good strong fuel line.

By the way, I tried tonight to cut the hose with the chisel method. I don't like that, it fold the teflon way too much. Since I'm not fan of the cutting wheel, we, Sovan and I gonna devise a custom way. Stay tuned.

 

[MYBAD79]

The thin cutting wheel on a Dremel works really well, use masking tape where you cut and the stainless braids will not come apart as much... makes a cleaner cut...

 

[Fuelie74]

By the way, I tried tonight to cut the hose with the chisel method. I don't like that, it fold the teflon way too much. Since I'm not fan of the cutting wheel, we, Sovan and I gonna devise a custom way. Stay tuned.

I use the chisel method and your right it does fold the Teflon hose, but it did not cause any problems for me.

 

[mrvette]

I used 8 AN for supply (1/2") - That's overkill for my engine but it fit the tank outlet pretty good ... pushed it onto the hard line and clamped it down with a SS hose clamp

I used 6 AN for the return, again, it fit the line at the tank

That's strange, I measured my tank line, outlet is 3/8 OD, return and vapor are 1/4 OD. Wouldn't I rather need 6an and 4an an instead of 8an and 6an?

I'm sure I ordered 6AN and 8AN, I remember it fit the existing hard line at the tank without modifications and only two SS hose clamps - I know hose clamps are not very popular but keep in mind the stock setup was rubber hose with some spring steel clamps.... even worse...

I confirm, just received the hose two day ago (all AN6) and they fit perfectly return and vapor line. Main line is bigger, I gonna have to find a with to make it fit. You was right.
Postponed the purchase of all this way too long, kinda lost track of my goals.

No reply on my last post, well, I guess people are getting tired of me asking questions.

:lol:

for some strange reason I must have missed this all together....



If the NPT adapter is a 90 degree ellbow and you can't get it to line up into the direction you need it, it is better to cut the thread with a NPT tap rather than trying to get another half turn out of the NPT... it won't work and as you see it can crack the pump... NPT is a tapered thread, there is quiet some force on it when you tighten (overtighten) it....

Just learned that yesterday, I did actually crack the pump. After reviewing the damage with my mechanic tonight, look like the pump port thread was not cut deep enough. Lesson learned.
I think I'm gonna stick to my stock pump for now, I think I can manage to keep it and still have good strong fuel line.

By the way, I tried tonight to cut the hose with the chisel method. I don't like that, it fold the teflon way too much. Since I'm not fan of the cutting wheel, we, Sovan and I gonna devise a custom way. Stay tuned.

I would use a cutter for PVC pipe....turning the hose in the cutter until it cuts through it all, maybe a dap of WD40 to assist with rubber....

 

[68/70Vette]

In my late teens, I had a summer job at Aeroquip in Jackson, Michigan. I assembled a large number of braided hoses with fittings. After wrapping the hose with tape, a cutoff wheel was used to cut the hose. It was fast and made a nice cut.
.............................
My job was to destroy hoses. The factory was assembling hoses with Aeroquip fittings for various customers. A percentage of all the manufactured hoses were destructively tested. I would mount them in a test camber and gradually increase pressue until they failed. We also tested them under extreme temperatures, both high and low. I also would destructively test new fittings and for these tests, I assembled the hoses myself (hence the cutoff experience). Some of the fittings were pretty exotic like one where you could uncouple a hose under high pressure, and only maybe a drop would seep out. For hoses I tested that come off the assembly line, I would destriy the fittings to make sure they were never used again. I must have destroyed many thousands of dollars worth of fittings. I had no idea those days that the fittings were so expensive. Blowing up hoses with hydraulic oil inside was pretty much uneventful, but if the fitting came loose it would pop off at a very high velocity. Testing hoses with compressed air was uncomfortable. When the hoses (or fittings) failed, they exploded with a very large bang.

 

[denpo]

Hey guys, I'm currently trying to match my GrandAm aluminum master cylinder with the brake line.
Thing I didn't notice is that the vette line are 1/4 and the master cylinder use 3/16 line.
Taking with the guys at the garage next door, they advised me against the idea of mixing line size, according to them I'm suppose to run all 1/4.
What do you think?
Finding a adapter to match the MC output 3/16 port with the stock line or go back to the scrapyard to find another MC?

 

[010752]

The line size doesn't make any difference at all.
Your oem is 3/16 line for the front and 1/4" for the rear.
Napa has or can get you any adapters you need whether sae or metric to converting to the other.

Are you running power brakes?

 

[denpo]

The line size doesn't make any difference at all.
Your oem is 3/16 line for the front and 1/4" for the rear.
Napa has or can get you any adapters you need whether sae or metric to converting to the other.

Are you running power brakes?

Ok, couldn't find the adapter at NAPA, turns out metric brake line fitting to imperial adapter just don't exist, so I bought a bunch of fittings so I could graft the 3/16 metric line that start at the MC to the stock 1/4 line that goes to the proportioning valve. Took a while, guys at NAPA here are willing to help but no rocket scientists. :amused:

 

[010752]

The line size doesn't make any difference at all.
Your oem is 3/16 line for the front and 1/4" for the rear.
Napa has or can get you any adapters you need whether sae or metric to converting to the other.

Are you running power brakes?

Ok, couldn't find the adapter at NAPA, turns out metric brake line fitting to imperial adapter just don't exist, so I bought a bunch of fittings so I could graft the 3/16 metric line that start at the MC to the stock 1/4 line that goes to the proportioning valve. Took a while, guys at NAPA here are willing to help but no rocket scientists. :amused:

Most are all available, you just have to do the legwork and give them the brand and part number and they should be able to get it for you from there.
If one parts guy is clueless, move onto the next one.:suicide: Some behind the counter competition is always great entertainment.:2nd:

Here are some, you can go thru the listings.
http://www.plews-edelmann.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=2324&location_id=2803

Some more adapter short lines
http://www.agscompany.com/automotive/brake-fuel-transmission-lines/poly-armour/324

http://www.agscompany.com/automotive/brake-fuel-transmission-lines/poly-armour

There are other companies too.
I've used the short lines just to get the fittings in a pinch.

So are you running power brakes or not?

 

[denpo]

The line size doesn't make any difference at all.
Your oem is 3/16 line for the front and 1/4" for the rear.
Napa has or can get you any adapters you need whether sae or metric to converting to the other.

Are you running power brakes?

Ok, couldn't find the adapter at NAPA, turns out metric brake line fitting to imperial adapter just don't exist, so I bought a bunch of fittings so I could graft the 3/16 metric line that start at the MC to the stock 1/4 line that goes to the proportioning valve. Took a while, guys at NAPA here are willing to help but no rocket scientists. :amused:

Most are all available, you just have to do the legwork and give them the brand and part number and they should be able to get it for you from there.
If one parts guy is clueless, move onto the next one.:suicide: Some behind the counter competition is always great entertainment.:2nd:

Here are some, you can go thru the listings.
http://www.plews-edelmann.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=2324&location_id=2803

Some more adapter short lines
http://www.agscompany.com/automotive/brake-fuel-transmission-lines/poly-armour/324

http://www.agscompany.com/automotive/brake-fuel-transmission-lines/poly-armour

There are other companies too.
I've used the short lines just to get the fittings in a pinch.

So are you running power brakes or not?

Yup power brake, suburban hydroboost + GrandAm MC