Failure to hump AFR leg

well... some say it's all the expensive research that justifies the high price for AFR heads, I think the aggressive advertising is a big part of what's bumping the price ... IMO too many people believe that if it's expensive it must be good... just one example: the intake Tornado for $50 :push:

I guess somebody has to buy all these expensive products to support our economy and keep the cash moving....

Yep. Exactly.

See, there's part of the fallicy.

Dart, Brodix, Edlebrock, All Pro, etc... MADE the investment in wet flow and Spintron. To my knowledge, AFR hasn't. I don't think anyone spends more on R&D than Dart in the business.

Yet the urban legend is AFR spends more money on R&D. I don't think so. If they did it was because they had to design new products to deal with the castings that were crap and the oil problems they had. That's not R&D, that's fixing what is broken. R&D fixes a problem, it doesn't bring a product to spec.

In fact, one of the obnoxious emails I got, when I purchased a set of Brodix, was some idiot asking "you think Brodix spends that much money on R&D"? "Do you think this much thought went into the design of those Race Rites"?

There you go. A perfect example of lore over reality.
 
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I read somewhere that AFR has done wet flow testing as well.
 
I read somewhere that AFR has done wet flow testing as well.

Yes, years ago. They do not promote it or mention it today. That was more or less a "test". If I remember correctly they used water, which has different properties than gas, and alcohol, and diesel. So it wasn't really what we talk about today when we talk about wet flow.
 
Just for shits I looked up prices @ Jeg's. AFR street heads are about 40 more than Dart's. I won't say one way or the other, but, if you believe AFR to make a better head, 3% more in the price is nothing.

Also, I find it annoying that dart and a lot of the other head manufacturers advertise their head price for each one instead of as a pair. I know how to add, but it seems like a cheap marketing ploy to make their heads sound cheaper. When I spend that much for a pair of heads I am going to be pissed if I have to replace just one on my dollar.

I also, hate it when the header people do the same thing......

P.S. I have AFR so maybe I'm a little biased :beer:
 
I guess I"m getting olde tyme or summfin' but in reality just how much power does my 3300 lbs shark NEED.....almost 400 hp and 425 ftlbs gets the car to 150 so fast it's blinding....with the top and windows down....none of that woosie shit for ME.....:shocking: so IF I added another 100 hp and shot the fuel economy ever further in the bipper.....how much faster am I likely to GO??

law of diminishing returns....much less law of bux sq. for every last HP.....

as a dead stock muncie L48 at ~200 hp the thing was decent, not FAST, just decent....added the L98 injection..worth a easy 50 hp on it...maybe 100, went to this roller engine in there now....same 355....headers, cam, induction, all that crap...is it FASTER?? hell YES, was the bang for the buck all that much greater than the initial L98 install on the stock engine, which was fresh and in decent shape......was it worth the 2500 bux to upgrade??? NO NO and Fuck NO.....

much less the loss in fuel economy....

now MY car is a reasonable quick street machine, that's IT.....

:pprrtt:
 
Just for shits I looked up prices @ Jeg's. AFR street heads are about 40 more than Dart's. I won't say one way or the other, but, if you believe AFR to make a better head, 3% more in the price is nothing.

Also, I find it annoying that dart and a lot of the other head manufacturers advertise their head price for each one instead of as a pair. I know how to add, but it seems like a cheap marketing ploy to make their heads sound cheaper. When I spend that much for a pair of heads I am going to be pissed if I have to replace just one on my dollar.

I also, hate it when the header people do the same thing......

P.S. I have AFR so maybe I'm a little biased :beer:


I agree with that completely, I wouldn't let $40 stand in the way of a product I thought was better.

My issue is the bullshit used to determine "better". The lies and exaggerations with no proof and preached as gospel. The "pushers" who act like pimps and drug pushers to ensure that every head sold is an AFR head. They will tell you anything you want to hear short of genuine proof so that you make the right decision.

If someone says "I'm buying AFR heads" and someone (me) has the audacity to ask "why"? or "did you even look at anything else"? I'm the bad guy. Go figure.

So to your header example, yes, same thing.
 
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Check out some serious race cars, I constantly see them using brodix and dart heads, rarely do you see AFRs.
 
Check out some serious race cars, I constantly see them using brodix and dart heads, rarely do you see AFRs.

100% true. When serious money is on the line, budget is no object, and winning is the goal, it's all Brodix and Dart. Don't forget All Pro in there too.

AFR has a nice little niche with their 195 ported heads if you believe flow vs.port size is the ultimate goal, which I don't but that's for another day. This isn't the right head for every application however. I see people sticking them on 400+CI engines which is ridiculous citing they flow as much as 227 heads from other manufactures. Ever see a test between an AFR 220 and a Brodix X-10? Why is that?

The thing about Dart and Brodix, is the people who buy them TYPICALLY tend to port them themselves to meet their specific needs, no one who is serious runs these heads "as cast". Once ported even lightly, the flow numbers, again if that's your yardstick, go though the ceiling. If that's what gets you off.

Guys who buy AFR want to take them out of the box, bolt them up, go. They are not connoisseurs of power. Doesn't mean it's the "best" head. It means it's the cheapest and easiest. Two different things.


Oh, and here's one that drives me nuts......."those heads make serious power".......here's one for ya...
Heads don't make power, engines do.....
 
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OK, since we're talking about marketing here's one I'll throw out to the peanut gallery.

The entire AFR story is based on small port big flow...all the rest of the bullshit stems from there.

Why is it, with the BILLIONS spent on R&D in professional racing, offshore boat racing, 9,8,7 second cars....all that money spent on R&D and to beat the next guy by .01 second....why is it that no other manufacturer takes that path?

Does Brodix, Dart, All Pro, Edlebrock, TFS, Canfiled, not have the money to do it? Do they not have the smarts? If it were that good wouldn't EVERYONE be doing it? Makes me skeptical to say the least. And this thing about lightened valves, same question.

To me, I think it's a bling factor...no basis in science or reality, just something cool to talk about and impress your schoolyard chums.
 
Was it Trick Flow or AFR that has the canted valves like BBC???

and for that matter, why can't someone just come out with a full blown HEMI design?? or is there a patent???

:bonkers:
 
As for Hemi design, you can buy Hemi heads for a BBC, nick arias makes them. Also, there are some pontiac hemi heads out too, they are from kaufmann I think.
 
Good ol fashioned GM heads get used a lot too.

A set of GM low port 18 degree heads for 9:1 racing motors would be wickedly cool, 200cc ports as cast.
Brodix as some 185cc 18 degree heads as well.
 
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OK, since we're talking about marketing here's one I'll throw out to the peanut gallery.

The entire AFR story is based on small port big flow...all the rest of the bullshit stems from there.

Why is it, with the BILLIONS spent on R&D in professional racing, offshore boat racing, 9,8,7 second cars....all that money spent on R&D and to beat the next guy by .01 second....why is it that no other manufacturer takes that path?

Does Brodix, Dart, All Pro, Edlebrock, TFS, Canfiled, not have the money to do it? Do they not have the smarts? If it were that good wouldn't EVERYONE be doing it? Makes me skeptical to say the least. And this thing about lightened valves, same question.

To me, I think it's a bling factor...no basis in science or reality, just something cool to talk about and impress your schoolyard chums.
I gonna step into the water here, please don't drown me.

My understanding is the small ports improve low/mid range torque. High flow is for top end hp. In a race engine run full bore all the time no one cares about the bottom end. Top end and hp is it. On a street car you need the torque. On a street car small runners with high flow would be the ideal? Have I just drank the AFR cool-aid or is there some fact to that premise?
 
OK, since we're talking about marketing here's one I'll throw out to the peanut gallery.

The entire AFR story is based on small port big flow...all the rest of the bullshit stems from there.

Why is it, with the BILLIONS spent on R&D in professional racing, offshore boat racing, 9,8,7 second cars....all that money spent on R&D and to beat the next guy by .01 second....why is it that no other manufacturer takes that path?

Does Brodix, Dart, All Pro, Edlebrock, TFS, Canfiled, not have the money to do it? Do they not have the smarts? If it were that good wouldn't EVERYONE be doing it? Makes me skeptical to say the least. And this thing about lightened valves, same question.

To me, I think it's a bling factor...no basis in science or reality, just something cool to talk about and impress your schoolyard chums.
I gonna step into the water here, please don't drown me.

My understanding is the small ports improve low/mid range torque. High flow is for top end hp. In a race engine run full bore all the time no one cares about the bottom end. Top end and hp is it. On a street car you need the torque. On a street car small runners with high flow would be the ideal? Have I just drank the AFR cool-aid or is there some fact to that premise?

There IS, but the same applies to any intake port volume/shape/size from any maker....it's the basic theory of why a TPI L98 engine made a easy 350 ft lbs torque and moved the C4 decently for it's point in time.....
putting a larger runner/base and plenum on the L98 made it better on the top end, but still not as good as the LT1 manifolds....yet another reason I went LT1 last winter....some aftermarket guys take a fortune to supply someting almost identical....

:gurney::shocking::ill:
 
OK, since we're talking about marketing here's one I'll throw out to the peanut gallery.

The entire AFR story is based on small port big flow...all the rest of the bullshit stems from there.

Why is it, with the BILLIONS spent on R&D in professional racing, offshore boat racing, 9,8,7 second cars....all that money spent on R&D and to beat the next guy by .01 second....why is it that no other manufacturer takes that path?

Does Brodix, Dart, All Pro, Edlebrock, TFS, Canfiled, not have the money to do it? Do they not have the smarts? If it were that good wouldn't EVERYONE be doing it? Makes me skeptical to say the least. And this thing about lightened valves, same question.

To me, I think it's a bling factor...no basis in science or reality, just something cool to talk about and impress your schoolyard chums.
I gonna step into the water here, please don't drown me.

My understanding is the small ports improve low/mid range torque. High flow is for top end hp. In a race engine run full bore all the time no one cares about the bottom end. Top end and hp is it. On a street car you need the torque. On a street car small runners with high flow would be the ideal? Have I just drank the AFR cool-aid or is there some fact to that premise?

To simplify my life, I pulled this from the archive. I spent a ton of time learning, so I save this stuff for just such an occasion:

Looking above we see that there is a great deal of effort put into not only how much air could be pulled through the port, but mostly, how it will get through the port, that's what is really important, getting air into the engine during actual operation effectively and efficiently, it's not all about VOLUME, it's about QUALITY. You must always remember that a flow bench is only measuring how easily air can be pulled into the cylinder, not how much fuel is in that stream or the QUALITY of the flow when operation is actually taking place. This means that when comparing cylinder head sizes the most important aspect as the SHAPE of the port and how that shape relates when viewing flow all the way to the combustion chamber. Airflow must be controlled, and hence the shape and measurements of the port are far more important that just looking at flow versus runner size. In other words DRY FLOW BENCHES ARE USELESS IN HEAD DESIGN AND FLOW VS. RUNNER SIZE IS A MYTH.

Again; a flow bench does not measure how much air will be pulled through the port during operation or the quality of delivery of that air, it measures the most simple of measurements, how easily it can be pulled though in a vacuum. Which tells you nothing about head performance.

When looking to design a port design a big consideration is to see what the airflow demands will be; they also must look to what type and how much fuel will be induced into the mix, what RPM the engine will be operating at and lastly, must look past the port into the combustion chamber and into the intake manifold. Again, a head with lower flow bench numbers which produces better charge delivery (through cleaner airflow and physics) and does so throughout the operating range of the engine, is a better, more efficient head that creates more power. Despite the mantra we hear here about efficiency being measured by some made up formula of port size vs. flow numbers, that is not the case in true engineering, or the laws of physics. It is simplistic marketing hype for the simpleton masses.

Significant hp can be gained or lost by port design regardless of the airflow number changes. GASP! A cutting edge cylinder head not only has low restriction and a proper shape for tuning purposes it also has to control velocity along with cutting back on irregular flow (turbulence). Now, a combustion chamber can promote flow or hinder it, it can also promote proper filling and flame travel (often trade offs); how a cylinder is filled is as important as how much of it is filled; all of the above have to balanced throughout the design process as there is no end all be all design that contains the best of every aspect. Flame travel, ever hear flame travel mentioned here? I didn't think so. No one here wants to think real hard about stuff, it's easier to spew meaningless numbers.

Another very complicated aspect of how the engine makes its power, valve and spark plug placement and combustion chamber shape have to consider this as well as how much air it can pass! To sum up, without the benefit of a wet flow bench, you would never be certain as to how the design works (and even the wet flow bench leaves something to be desired amongst designers but hey it's a step in the right direction that measures additional variables). Now, that's not to say you can't get lucky by coping someone else's design, or through trial and error like many speed shops, however, there is no science behind guessing on a dry flow bench (just what worked well in the past…). It's brute force vs. elegant design.
 
I have Canfield aluminum cylinder heads on my motor. They replaced iron GM heads. Price was right or I would still have the iron GM heads.

Rich:beer:
 
OK, since we're talking about marketing here's one I'll throw out to the peanut gallery.

The entire AFR story is based on small port big flow...all the rest of the bullshit stems from there.

Why is it, with the BILLIONS spent on R&D in professional racing, offshore boat racing, 9,8,7 second cars....all that money spent on R&D and to beat the next guy by .01 second....why is it that no other manufacturer takes that path?

Does Brodix, Dart, All Pro, Edlebrock, TFS, Canfiled, not have the money to do it? Do they not have the smarts? If it were that good wouldn't EVERYONE be doing it? Makes me skeptical to say the least. And this thing about lightened valves, same question.

To me, I think it's a bling factor...no basis in science or reality, just something cool to talk about and impress your schoolyard chums.
I gonna step into the water here, please don't drown me.

My understanding is the small ports improve low/mid range torque. High flow is for top end hp. In a race engine run full bore all the time no one cares about the bottom end. Top end and hp is it. On a street car you need the torque. On a street car small runners with high flow would be the ideal? Have I just drank the AFR cool-aid or is there some fact to that premise?

That's the cut and paste. Here's a little more.

Port size has an effect on power band and where the torque lies, yes. If this were the case, we'd all be seeking L98s, not LT1s right? After all the L98 has more torque.

To say "on a street car you need torque" is a gross generalization and assumes that everyone wants the same thing out of a motor. How much torque do you need? I can't ge If you prefer torque and you think that's better, that's up to you, there's plenty of ways to get it.

If you believe that AFR is the only company that can offer performance, then yes, you drank the Koolaid.
 
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Which is why I don't miss a thing about that L98 setup....the LT runs just as well.....52 MM t-body was retained....:drink:
 
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