Fast Efi

Where did you hear all that?... I did my homework on this. The FAST ECU is about the most advanced system out there, right up there with the "Big-Stuff" ECU. Much more advanced than the Edelbrock and Accell set-ups. It is completely self-adjusting, using a wide-band O2 sensor and speed-density technology. It can be set up for batch-fire or sequential fire, coil on plug, DIS, etc. Go to the FAST website and read the install doc. and set-up details. You will be impressed with it's capabilities. http://www.fuelairspark.com/
http://www.fuelairspark.com/Instructions/XFI_ECU_OperationManual.pdf

I agree with big G :thumbs: except the part about "much more advanced than Accel". Actually the FAST and Accel ECU's are very close wrt system capability. FAST has a 16x17 cell map vs the 16x16 used by Accel, but that is minor advantage since map scaling is typically used. Fast also has an integrated wideband O2 control. Both systems are far and away superior to the old GM ECUs Gene keeps pushing. :lol: I choose Accel because it provided me a better capability for the $. Using the LC-1 wideband controller rather than paying the higher cost of the FAST integrated UEGO was an advantage for me. I was able to get a sweet deal with Accel, whereas it sounds like you have the inside track with FAST. :wink: I would be interested to hear any more pros-cons that may be relevant.:beer:

Bullshark

Gene, I need to get down to Fla for one of the cruises so we can get together over a few beers and talk turkey:stirpot::D
 
What pulsewidth limitation are you talking about? If you mean the 80-85% max,. that's because above that the injector pintle starts floating and won't close, whenever that happens the actual flowrate drops down to 90% of it's max. That's the maximum pulsewidth limitation that I know of. Is there something else in those ECMs that limits it even more?

No, the stock ECU will only allow a flow rate of XXX which it calcualtes from the TIME the injector is open vs. the size of the injector provided in the software, which you can set.

It is set up for 30 pound injectors to run full duty cycle. If you require bigger injectors, you have to remove the time limitation that the pulse width is open.

There are a number of ways to do this by "lying" to the computer....but with the limitation removed, it is more "true".

For example, if you need a pulsewidth of 10MS, based on the size of the injector, the stock ECU will cut you off at 6MS, creating a lean condition.

Before the pulse width hack was written people would simply lie to the computer to "fake it out" to get what they mean. This is the primary reason for after market systems.

Also, the VE tables on a stock system only run to 5400, another advantage to the after market systems. HOwever, with the EV (extended volumetric tables) software, you can take it to 6400 on the stock ECI, another example of where the stock software is catching up with after market systems.

I am learning tuning, I am a novice, but what I print, I know is true.
 
Where did you hear all that?... I did my homework on this. The FAST ECU is about the most advanced system out there, right up there with the "Big-Stuff" ECU. Much more advanced than the Edelbrock and Accell set-ups. It is completely self-adjusting, using a wide-band O2 sensor and speed-density technology. It can be set up for batch-fire or sequential fire, coil on plug, DIS, etc. Go to the FAST website and read the install doc. and set-up details. You will be impressed with it's capabilities. http://www.fuelairspark.com/
http://www.fuelairspark.com/Instructions/XFI_ECU_OperationManual.pdf

I agree with big G :thumbs: except the part about "much more advanced than Accel". Actually the FAST and Accel ECU's are very close wrt system capability. FAST has a 16x17 cell map vs the 16x16 used by Accel, but that is minor advantage since map scaling is typically used. Fast also has an integrated wideband O2 control. Both systems are far and away superior to the old GM ECUs Gene keeps pushing. :lol: I choose Accel because it provided me a better capability for the $. Using the LC-1 wideband controller rather than paying the higher cost of the FAST integrated UEGO was an advantage for me. I was able to get a sweet deal with Accel, whereas it sounds like you have the inside track with FAST. :wink: I would be interested to hear any more pros-cons that may be relevant.:beer:

Bullshark

Gene, I need to get down to Fla for one of the cruises so we can get together over a few beers and talk turkey:stirpot::D

I'm just saying, not according to the tuners and other experts I have spoken with.

My point is if you have a stock ECU, keep it there's little advantage to spending $2-3K on an after market.

If you have nothing, consider a stock ECU as an option if you can get one cheaper. You won't be worse off for it.

That's all.
 
Can you do batch or sequential but big deal. The only advantage to sequential is at idle, as far as I can tell.

Not true....If that is what your experts tell you I would start looking for a new source

Bullshark

OK, then tell me. I'm always up for learning something new. This is my first EFI car, my last couple vettes were C3s, carbed.

What I was told that sequential keeps fuel from puddling at idle and gives better emissions at idle. Once off idle, it's all about the same. Not that there isn't ANY difference, but that the difference is negligible.

I have no problem being wrong, and I am not saying my comments are gospel, just points of consideration. Just putting up what I learned. I prefer to be corrected than ignorant.

Thanks.
 
Hey man, I don't want to be a wet blanket here, but if you didn't already purchase the FAST you may want to consider some of the other manufacturers such as Bosch for example.

If you look at what European road race cars use, those systems are far more elaborate and tuneable for street driving.

The FAST due to it's limited configurability is more like a carb in the respect that you only have one tune, and it does not read the O2 sensor to adjust on the fly.

It is a fairly raw system, and although an improvment over a carb, not the best all around solution for all around driving. It is typically good for a single purpose vechicle. Basically it is like tuning a stock car to open loop, it's not very effective. Many tuners would argue that the stock ECU from a C4 is a better street system than the fast in terms of ability to control the fuel delivery. The FAST is easy to tune, and works, but is very raw.

Just my .02 before you spend the money.

Where did you hear all that?... I did my homework on this. The FAST ECU is about the most advanced system out there, right up there with the "Big-Stuff" ECU. Much more advanced than the Edelbrock and Accell set-ups. It is completely self-adjusting, using a wide-band O2 sensor and speed-density technology. It can be set up for batch-fire or sequential fire, coil on plug, DIS, etc. Go to the FAST website and read the install doc. and set-up details. You will be impressed with it's capabilities. http://www.fuelairspark.com/
http://www.fuelairspark.com/Instructions/XFI_ECU_OperationManual.pdf

It started with my tuner, who is a FAST dealer and installs them regularly. He said that the stock ECU in my '90 was superior to the FAST in that it can better manage the engine.

As my wife says, I "shop for shoe laces". So I started making calls to tuners, and people I know and ran the theory past them.

I could not find a tuner who disagreed with the original assessment that the OEM ECU with the Pulse Width Limitation taken off, is more refined and more accurate than any after market system available.

Now, I am not presenting myself to be an expert here, let's be clear. I am just saying, the brochures say one thing, and tuners seem to be saying another.

Does this mean there is anything WRONG with FAST? No, absolutely not. Perhaps you can pick up a stock ECU and harness for a lot less and end up with a better tune, if done right. Just sayin'...

I am simply speaking to the research I had done and what I was told by people who are experts.

Can you do batch or sequential but big deal. The only advantage to sequential is at idle, as far as I can tell.

Not to rag on your "tuner" but why is he installing the FAST efi "regularly" if the are inferior? The '90's ECM was designed in the '80's. A dinosaur by today's standards, being over over 20 years old.
 
I'm just saying, not according to the tuners and other experts I have spoken with.

My point is if you have a stock ECU, keep it there's little advantage to spending $2-3K on an after market.

If you have nothing, consider a stock ECU as an option if you can get one cheaper. You won't be worse off for it.

That's all.

Jsup, I hear you, but depending on what you are trying to achieve, the logic doesn't hold. I have a RamJet 502 in my 70, it came with a MEFI ECU which in many ways is superior to some of the older GM ones being discussed hear. I dumped it and went with Accel Gen VII. I purchased the ECU, a Dual sync distributor, and a un terminated wire harness for roughly $1300 I added the LC-1 for an additional $175. It was the best thing I ever did for that engine. I now have complete control over my tunes with all the advantages that most of the good aftermarket systems are capable of. UEGO, multiple real time selectable fuel maps, sequential, low impeadance injectors, NOS, knock ssensor etc. etc. I can sell the MEFI to a boater for upwards of $500 if I can find a sucker. :wink:


Bullshark
 
No, the stock ECU will only allow a flow rate of XXX which it calcualtes from the TIME the injector is open vs. the size of the injector provided in the software, which you can set.

It is set up for 30 pound injectors to run full duty cycle. If you require bigger injectors, you have to remove the time limitation that the pulse width is open.

There are a number of ways to do this by "lying" to the computer....but with the limitation removed, it is more "true".

For example, if you need a pulsewidth of 10MS, based on the size of the injector, the stock ECU will cut you off at 6MS, creating a lean condition.

Before the pulse width hack was written people would simply lie to the computer to "fake it out" to get what they mean. This is the primary reason for after market systems.

Also, the VE tables on a stock system only run to 5400, another advantage to the after market systems. HOwever, with the EV (extended volumetric tables) software, you can take it to 6400 on the stock ECI, another example of where the stock software is catching up with after market systems.

I am learning tuning, I am a novice, but what I print, I know is true.

I have never heard of this before. To my knowledge the ECU reads a value for injector size that describes how long it takes 1 injector to flow 1 gram. So sec/gram for 1 injector. if you have a 30 lbs injector operating at the rated pressure then a 30 lbs injector takes .264 seconds. This is the maximum flowrate and that's at around 85% duty cycle.

If you add bigger injectors and don't change the value then obviously the ecm is tricked like you say, but even if you change the valve. Why would there be a setting to limit the flow to a certain amount? The ECM doesn't "know" what the right hex value is for this number (in this case HEX264 = 108) it just takes that number and uses it. It's jsut a big old calculator and does calculations, nothing else. I fail to see how there would be a max flow restriction in the system. The only restriction I see is tha max pulsewidth the injector can operate at.
 
Bullshark...maybe "much more advanced" than Accell was pushing it a little, but with the data logging , boost control, traction control, trans. brake control etc. FAST also supports low impedance injectors..not sure about Accell or Edelbrock. FAST has more "bells and whistles" than either Accell or Edelbrock. Most peeps won't miss these features.

Jsup...I'm running 15+ lbs. of boost. No way is an old ECM gonna cut it. I also don't have time to re-learn code to program the GM ECM. One real advantage of sequential fuel injection (for me anyways) is individual cylinder fuel/timing control. Can't do that with batch fire.
 
Bullshark...maybe "much more advanced" than Accell was pushing it a little, but with the data logging , boost control, traction control, trans. brake control etc. FAST also supports low impedance injectors..not sure about Accell or Edelbrock. FAST has more "bells and whistles" than either Accell or Edelbrock. Most peeps won't miss these features.

Jsup...I'm running 15+ lbs. of boost. No way is an old ECM gonna cut it. I also don't have time to re-learn code to program the GM ECM. One real advantage of sequential fuel injection (for me anyways) is individual cylinder fuel/timing control. Can't do that with batch fire.

Agree, not sure of the differences with datalogging, Accel has alot of capability there.????? Boost control capability I didn't look into very hard. Accel has a three step turbo boost builder with a 2step rev limiter capability to alow the MAP to catch up. Wish I had some traction control on that RamJet TKO-500. :D Yes, Accel supports low impeadance injectors. Matter of fact, I just purchased a set for my 69 BB with Holley C950. I had to buy a interface box so I could use them.:mad: One feature I really like on Accel is there dual electric fan control for my Dual Spal fans. I think Fast is also capable there.

Bullshark
 
Bullshark.....I was this close >< to buying the Accell Gen VII, but my jobber gets a heavy discount on FAST (Comp.Cams), not so much on Accell. Both systems are very user friendly, with great control panels. Like I said earlier, my cost difference was about $400, so I went with FAST. Besides, Dean Harvey at Comp. Cams is a great asset. He is always is helpful on my cam needs, and helped a lot on putting together a FAST system for me.:beer:
 
I hear you G, I'm in a similar situation with a friend of mine who is in heavy with off shore boat racing. Competition Marine Center. He is an Accel man. :kissass:
 
No, the stock ECU will only allow a flow rate of XXX which it calcualtes from the TIME the injector is open vs. the size of the injector provided in the software, which you can set.

It is set up for 30 pound injectors to run full duty cycle. If you require bigger injectors, you have to remove the time limitation that the pulse width is open.

There are a number of ways to do this by "lying" to the computer....but with the limitation removed, it is more "true".

For example, if you need a pulsewidth of 10MS, based on the size of the injector, the stock ECU will cut you off at 6MS, creating a lean condition.

Before the pulse width hack was written people would simply lie to the computer to "fake it out" to get what they mean. This is the primary reason for after market systems.

Also, the VE tables on a stock system only run to 5400, another advantage to the after market systems. HOwever, with the EV (extended volumetric tables) software, you can take it to 6400 on the stock ECI, another example of where the stock software is catching up with after market systems.

I am learning tuning, I am a novice, but what I print, I know is true.

I have never heard of this before. To my knowledge the ECU reads a value for injector size that describes how long it takes 1 injector to flow 1 gram. So sec/gram for 1 injector. if you have a 30 lbs injector operating at the rated pressure then a 30 lbs injector takes .264 seconds. This is the maximum flowrate and that's at around 85% duty cycle.

If you add bigger injectors and don't change the value then obviously the ecm is tricked like you say, but even if you change the valve. Why would there be a setting to limit the flow to a certain amount? The ECM doesn't "know" what the right hex value is for this number (in this case HEX264 = 108) it just takes that number and uses it. It's jsut a big old calculator and does calculations, nothing else. I fail to see how there would be a max flow restriction in the system. The only restriction I see is tha max pulsewidth the injector can operate at.

I worked with an engine simulator:

335357668.jpg


335358224.jpg


335357795.jpg


this simulator can re create any engine condition from maniflold pressure, temp, O2, etc.... It has a check engine light, AC on/off, basically there is no condition that can't be recreated on the bench.

As you can see, although blurry, when an engine analyzer is hooked to it you can see the pulse with increase as the TPS knob is turned up to X% throttle.

As the TPS goes up the pulse with on the engine analyzer goes up accordingly.

In the software we are using, Tuner Cat, there is a field to put in your injector size. When that field is changed, you can see on the engine simulator that the pulse with goes up and down when the injector size is increased or decreased.

Now, if the injector is too small the pulse width will hit the wall and not increase say for example over 70% throttle. If the injector is too big, it will limit the pulse width to less than adequate. The stock computer, without the limit, is designed to deliver what a 30lb injector can deliver at max delivery.

When a new program is introduced with the pulse width cap eliminated, you can see, without question, on the engine analyzer that the pulse width continues to go up... I've seen jumps as much as 50% using the simulator.

So, yeah, that's exactly how it works.
 
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Not to rag on your "tuner" but why is he installing the FAST efi "regularly" if the are inferior? The '90's ECM was designed in the '80's. A dinosaur by today's standards, being over over 20 years old.

My tuner is Greg Carroll, of Carroll Supercharging, Blowerworks. (more than a footnote in C4 history) I do not think that anyone would consider him a novice...;)

He's tuned plenty of these cars over decades and has been building superchargers for decades. I'd say he's fairly competent. And a hell of a nice guy too.

Between his reputation, knowledge, and experience I pretty much listen to what he has to say. His modified C4s were selling for almost $90K back in the day....
 
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I'm just saying, not according to the tuners and other experts I have spoken with.

My point is if you have a stock ECU, keep it there's little advantage to spending $2-3K on an after market.

If you have nothing, consider a stock ECU as an option if you can get one cheaper. You won't be worse off for it.

That's all.

Jsup, I hear you, but depending on what you are trying to achieve, the logic doesn't hold. I have a RamJet 502 in my 70, it came with a MEFI ECU which in many ways is superior to some of the older GM ones being discussed hear. I dumped it and went with Accel Gen VII. I purchased the ECU, a Dual sync distributor, and a un terminated wire harness for roughly $1300 I added the LC-1 for an additional $175. It was the best thing I ever did for that engine. I now have complete control over my tunes with all the advantages that most of the good aftermarket systems are capable of. UEGO, multiple real time selectable fuel maps, sequential, low impeadance injectors, NOS, knock ssensor etc. etc. I can sell the MEFI to a boater for upwards of $500 if I can find a sucker. :wink:


Bullshark

I'm not saying it's a one size fits all world.

Just saying the stock computers are adequate in far more applications than people give them credit for. No real power is gained using a FAST in may situations. If you can find a tuner who will do it, the stock ECU can work just fine, no need to drop $2000-3000 on a new ECU as the gains will be minimal, if even at all.

I'm not a fan of buying the parts the "cool kids" buy just because they buy them. Just a little reality check I guess.
 
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No, the stock ECU will only allow a flow rate of XXX which it calcualtes from the TIME the injector is open vs. the size of the injector provided in the software, which you can set.

It is set up for 30 pound injectors to run full duty cycle. If you require bigger injectors, you have to remove the time limitation that the pulse width is open.

There are a number of ways to do this by "lying" to the computer....but with the limitation removed, it is more "true".

For example, if you need a pulsewidth of 10MS, based on the size of the injector, the stock ECU will cut you off at 6MS, creating a lean condition.

Before the pulse width hack was written people would simply lie to the computer to "fake it out" to get what they mean. This is the primary reason for after market systems.

Also, the VE tables on a stock system only run to 5400, another advantage to the after market systems. HOwever, with the EV (extended volumetric tables) software, you can take it to 6400 on the stock ECI, another example of where the stock software is catching up with after market systems.

I am learning tuning, I am a novice, but what I print, I know is true.

I have never heard of this before. To my knowledge the ECU reads a value for injector size that describes how long it takes 1 injector to flow 1 gram. So sec/gram for 1 injector. if you have a 30 lbs injector operating at the rated pressure then a 30 lbs injector takes .264 seconds. This is the maximum flowrate and that's at around 85% duty cycle.

If you add bigger injectors and don't change the value then obviously the ecm is tricked like you say, but even if you change the valve. Why would there be a setting to limit the flow to a certain amount? The ECM doesn't "know" what the right hex value is for this number (in this case HEX264 = 108) it just takes that number and uses it. It's jsut a big old calculator and does calculations, nothing else. I fail to see how there would be a max flow restriction in the system. The only restriction I see is tha max pulsewidth the injector can operate at.

I worked with an engine simulator:

335357668.jpg


335358224.jpg


335357795.jpg


this simulator can re create any engine condition from maniflold pressure, temp, O2, etc.... It has a check engine light, AC on/off, basically there is no condition that can't be recreated on the bench.

As you can see, although blurry, when an engine analyzer is hooked to it you can see the pulse with increase as the TPS knob is turned up to X% throttle.

As the TPS goes up the pulse with on the engine analyzer goes up accordingly.

In the software we are using, Tuner Cat, there is a field to put in your injector size. When that field is changed, you can see on the engine simulator that the pulse with goes up and down when the injector size is increased or decreased.

Now, if the injector is too small the pulse width will hit the wall and not increase say for example over 70% throttle. If the injector is too big, it will limit the pulse width to less than adequate. The stock computer, without the limit, is designed to deliver what a 30lb injector can deliver at max delivery.

When a new program is introduced with the pulse width cap eliminated, you can see, without question, on the engine analyzer that the pulse width continues to go up... I've seen jumps as much as 50% using the simulator.

So, yeah, that's exactly how it works.

I'm not following at all. The injector pulsewidth should max out at about 80% because of before mentioned issues above that.

I can see how the ECM has a limit for PW above 80% but what are you doing, only changing injectors and then also changing the sec/gram hex value and hoping that the fuel maps that are in there already will work properly?

First of all the injectors should be sized to meet bsfc at about 75-80% PW, after that you tackle the fuel mak for the proper PW so that the correction factors (BLM & INT) can make minute changes from there based on O2 sensor feedback.
 
I'm not following at all. The injector pulsewidth should max out at about 80% because of before mentioned issues above that.

I can see how the ECM has a limit for PW above 80% but what are you doing, only changing injectors and then also changing the sec/gram hex value and hoping that the fuel maps that are in there already will work properly?

First of all the injectors should be sized to meet bsfc at about 75-80% PW, after that you tackle the fuel mak for the proper PW so that the correction factors (BLM & INT) can make minute changes from there based on O2 sensor feedback.

Pulse width is measured in milliseconds, not percentages.

Duty cycle is measured in percentages. Two different things.

Pulse width is how long it stays open.

Duty cycle is how frequently it opens.

When I spoke of TPS position for hitting max pulse width at 70%, that was to point out how the PW cap can restrict HP by limiting fuel.

My finger is fucked up and it's hard to type, I apologize if my responses are a bit cryptic.
 
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Never guess what got delivered today...that was FAST....lol
:bounce:

That's great.

Just wanted to apologize for the hijack. Just learning this stuff myself and trying to hash out what I know as opposed to what I think I know.
 
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