Hydroboost, Pros and cons

I'm thinking about HB for my 70 BB for two reasons: (1) I plan to use a stud girdle and the valve cover will probably hit the Vacuum cannister with the stock system (2) I'm 67 and I'm concerned that years from now I won't have enough leg strength for the manual brakes. I have manual brakes in my 68.

Questions:
(1) Have people had experience with the VB&P HB sold in their catalong? Is there another vendor? Hydratech probably makes the kit that VBP sells. Lots of good information at the site:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/Hydratech/products.html


(2) Is there a way of reducing it's sensitivity? Corvette M/C's have either 1 inch bores or 1 1/8 inch bores depending upon whether the car is Manual (MB) or Power (PB). I think PB M/C's have 1 1/8 inch bores. Would running a MB MC (1 inch bore) reduce sensitivity. Also, the brake petal arm inside the car has to locating holes for the shaft to the MC. PB's user the lower hole, would using the upper hole reduce sensitivity? The upper hole is where the manual cylinder mounts. There is greater leverage at that upper hole and (this is a guess) that means you are putting more force into the Hydraboost unit with less effort. I say this is a guess because the hydraulic assist does not have to be proportional to the pedal pressure. I assume that it does but can't say for sure that is true. Hydratech should be able to answer that question.

The 1" bore will make your brakes more "touchy" by increasing the hydraulic pressure over the PB master.


(3) Weight? the opening post big2bird cited weight as an issue. I wouldn't think there that much heavier than the stock can. Anyhow, I plan on using an aluminum MC made by Stainless Steel Brake Corporation. Anyone have any experience with this unit? A Hydroboost unit is a chunk of iron, way heavier than the vacuum booster. I would guess 12-15lbs?

Thannks

1)Hydratech probably makes the kit that VBP sells. Lots of good information at the site:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/Hydratech/products.html

2)The upper hole is where the manual cylinder mounts. There is greater leverage at that upper hole and (this is a guess) that means you are putting more force into the Hydraboost unit with less effort. I say this is a guess because the hydraulic assist does not have to be proportional to the pedal pressure. I assume that it does but can't say for sure that is true. Hydratech should be able to answer that question.

The 1" bore will make your brakes more "touchy" by increasing the hydraulic pressure over the PB master

3)A Hydroboost unit is a chunk of iron, way heavier than the vacuum booster. I would guess 12-15lbs?
 
I'm thinking about HB for my 70 BB for two reasons: (1) I plan to use a stud girdle and the valve cover will probably hit the Vacuum cannister with the stock system (2) I'm 67 and I'm concerned that years from now I won't have enough leg strength for the manual brakes. I have manual brakes in my 68.

Questions:
(1) Have people had experience with the VB&P HB sold in their catalong? Is there another vendor? Hydratech probably makes the kit that VBP sells. Lots of good information at the site:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/Hydratech/products.html


(2) Is there a way of reducing it's sensitivity? Corvette M/C's have either 1 inch bores or 1 1/8 inch bores depending upon whether the car is Manual (MB) or Power (PB). I think PB M/C's have 1 1/8 inch bores. Would running a MB MC (1 inch bore) reduce sensitivity. Also, the brake petal arm inside the car has to locating holes for the shaft to the MC. PB's user the lower hole, would using the upper hole reduce sensitivity? The upper hole is where the manual cylinder mounts. There is greater leverage at that upper hole and (this is a guess) that means you are putting more force into the Hydraboost unit with less effort. I say this is a guess because the hydraulic assist does not have to be proportional to the pedal pressure. I assume that it does but can't say for sure that is true. Hydratech should be able to answer that question.

The 1" bore will make your brakes more "touchy" by increasing the hydraulic pressure over the PB master.


(3) Weight? the opening post big2bird cited weight as an issue. I wouldn't think there that much heavier than the stock can. Anyhow, I plan on using an aluminum MC made by Stainless Steel Brake Corporation. Anyone have any experience with this unit? A Hydroboost unit is a chunk of iron, way heavier than the vacuum booster. I would guess 12-15lbs?

Thannks

1)Hydratech probably makes the kit that VBP sells. Lots of good information at the site:

http://www.hydratechbraking.com/Hydratech/products.html

2)The upper hole is where the manual cylinder mounts. There is greater leverage at that upper hole and (this is a guess) that means you are putting more force into the Hydraboost unit with less effort. I say this is a guess because the hydraulic assist does not have to be proportional to the pedal pressure. I assume that it does but can't say for sure that is true. Hydratech should be able to answer that question.

The 1" bore will make your brakes more "touchy" by increasing the hydraulic pressure over the PB master


3)A Hydroboost unit is a chunk of iron, way heavier than the vacuum booster. I would guess 12-15lbs?



You are correct as far as manual brakes are concerned, but I went from my 'truck m/cyl' and that vac 'booster' to the HB, and it was FAR too sensitive... went back to a stock diameter alumnum m/cyl and it's fine...much less 'sensitive' the amount of boost available on demand with HB is far better than any sucky vac unit....FAR outweighting any given cylinder pedal pressure demand variations.....

as for weight...I hefted both at same time one each hand....did not weigh them, but by heft they felt the same, I would believe 5-6 lbs differential + for the HB, not a problem...but with the alunumum m/cyl instead of that truck unit...that saved at least 50 lbs right there...:bounce:

call it a even trade...

:hissyfit:
 
You are correct as far as manual brakes are concerned, but I went from my 'truck m/cyl' and that vac 'booster' to the HB, and it was FAR too sensitive... went back to a stock diameter alumnum m/cyl and it's fine...much less 'sensitive' the amount of boost available on demand with HB is far better than any sucky vac unit....FAR outweighting any given cylinder pedal pressure demand variations.....

as for weight...I hefted both at same time one each hand....did not weigh them, but by heft they felt the same, I would believe 5-6 lbs differential + for the HB, not a problem...but with the alunumum m/cyl instead of that truck unit...that saved at least 50 lbs right there...:bounce:

call it a even trade...

:hissyfit:

Gene, There is no question that the hydroboost supplies greater assist. The question here is whether it is better to have limited brake modulation ability or conventional vacuum brakes.

I drove a Chevelle with Hydroboost and the owner was just like you, he was ecstatic that you could lock up the brakes with a feather touch. I asked him what would happen in a panic stop and of course he replied that the brakes would lock up immediatly, rain, snow, gravel, it dosent matter.

I don't care how you slice it, lock up is dangerous.

The truck MC should have been 1 1/4 dia. Reducing the size of the master only makes the brakes more sensitive (not the opposite).

This is a good site for info about how a hydroboost works:

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf030542.htm
 
Gene, There is no question that the hydroboost supplies greater assist. The question here is whether it is better to have limited brake modulation ability or conventional vacuum brakes.

I drove a Chevelle with Hydroboost and the owner was just like you, he was ecstatic that you could lock up the brakes with a feather touch. I asked him what would happen in a panic stop and of course he replied that the brakes would lock up immediatly, rain, snow, gravel, it dosent matter.

I don't care how you slice it, lock up is dangerous.

The truck MC should have been 1 1/4 dia. Reducing the size of the master only makes the brakes more sensitive (not the opposite).

This is a good site for info about how a hydroboost works:

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf030542.htm

Chevelle is like my olde goat, the thing was like every other vac boosted car...my shark never was....NONE of them were ever very confidence building in that the pedal travel is TO ME, extreme to say the least...

but NOW on this shark, and sharks are rather time/period unique in brake design....the pedal travel is greatly reduced and the firmness is better than any other vehicle I have driven...

driven a few trucks from time to time, maybe they did have HB...dunno, not my issue...rentals...

:goodnight:
 
I don't believe you can judge brake performance on how easy you lock up all 4 wheels. If locking them up was better for braking,then why has all the manufactures gone to ABS. Locking up the wheels does nothing for stopping performance. Locking up up the wheels does nothing but make the car uncontrollable.
I bet you're vette cannot out stop mine and i vac assist.
 
exactly, stomp hard enough on the brakes and they will lock up. IMO, it's about how well you can modulate the brakes and feel when the tires are about to lock up and do this time after time after time without smelling that nasty smell..like burnt electrical board (or phenolic)...the dreaded pad fade!!

Hydroboost does not solve almost solid sloppy alu pistons with crappy sealing bores & lip seals, transferring scorching heat directly into the fluid and a scorching hot iron caliper & rotor.....

Braking deceleration is @ max just before the tires lock up. Locked wheels means you're nothing but a passenger on a wild ride.
 
exactly, stomp hard enough on the brakes and they will lock up. IMO, it's about how well you can modulate the brakes and feel when the tires are about to lock up and do this time after time after time without smelling that nasty smell..like burnt electrical board (or phenolic)...the dreaded pad fade!!

Hydroboost does not solve almost solid sloppy alu pistons with crappy sealing bores & lip seals, transferring scorching heat directly into the fluid and a scorching hot iron caliper & rotor.....

Braking deceleration is @ max just before the tires lock up. Locked wheels means you're nothing but a passenger on a wild ride.

:waxer: depends on what you like, large pedal travel and a softer 'feel' to a shark than most any other car of the era, or you want a nice firm pedal with about 1/2 the travel....and stops better with a more confident feeling to the pedal.....your call.....

:tth:
 
large travel and soft feel have nothing to do with te booster. The travel is determined by the MC size and in that respect long travel and soft feel don't go together, a small MC will have a softer pedal (requires less effort) but also a longer throw to displace an X amount of fluid for the same pedal ratio. The other way around for the larger bore MC.

Eitehr way, with a vac or hydrobooster, the pedal and master are still connected mechanically, the only difference is the vac booster has the diaphragm(s) to give assist, the booster has an assist piston, controlled by the spool valve.

explodedview1.jpg


So, without worrying about what kind of assist, the only factor is MC size.

The HB simply gives a very different feel. The "firm" pedal feel with the HB is not necessarily because you have rock hard brakes that are bled properly (something you can get w/ a vac booster too!!) but it's the way the booster operates. for instance, if you have the engine off and pump the pedal until and then start the engine with slight pedal pressure, the pedal first sinks and then you feel it getting pushed back again. This is the chamber being pressurized, the pressure you describe as a rock hard pedal is simply the pressurized system you feel. Only if you do not apply the pedal will the power chamber be bypassed directly to the return line. Depressing the piston will pressurize the chamber.
Depressing the pedal moves the spool valve, closing off the return port first, more pedal will move the spool valve enough to open the pressure port from the pump to pressurize the chamber and this forces the assist piston forward. Release the pedal and the return spring moves the spool back, closes off the pump input and then opens the return venting the pressure in the chamber to the pump.
 
large travel and soft feel have nothing to do with te booster. The travel is determined by the MC size and in that respect long travel and soft feel don't go together, a small MC will have a softer pedal (requires less effort) but also a longer throw to displace an X amount of fluid for the same pedal ratio. The other way around for the larger bore MC.


Longer easier toss to the pedal with smaller bore....shorter but harder as you moving more cross section of fluid to manage same volume with larger bore....

what you said above seem the opposite....



Eitehr way, with a vac or hydrobooster, the pedal and master are still connected mechanically, the only difference is the vac booster has the diaphragm(s) to give assist, the booster has an assist piston, controlled by the spool valve.

right, except for that spring in the vacuum boosters the sharks used....about a inch diameter and inch long between input and output shafts....allows another ~1/2 inch compression within the booster, and maybe 2" at the pedal....only thing my observations can explain ....so the m/cyl goes to full compression , but the pedal still travels....it's a messed up feeling to me....and like I said, most cars feel that way....

but the A to B direct comparo upon install the HB system instantly made the truck m/cyl way too much...so back to stock diameter...





explodedview1.jpg


So, without worrying about what kind of assist, the only factor is MC size.

The HB simply gives a very different feel. The "firm" pedal feel with the HB is not necessarily because you have rock hard brakes that are bled properly (something you can get w/ a vac booster too!!) but it's the way the booster operates. for instance, if you have the engine off and pump the pedal until and then start the engine with slight pedal pressure, the pedal first sinks and then you feel it getting pushed back again. This is the chamber being pressurized, the pressure you describe as a rock hard pedal is simply the pressurized system you feel. Only if you do not apply the pedal will the power chamber be bypassed directly to the return line. Depressing the piston will pressurize the chamber.
Depressing the pedal moves the spool valve, closing off the return port first, more pedal will move the spool valve enough to open the pressure port from the pump to pressurize the chamber and this forces the assist piston forward. Release the pedal and the return spring moves the spool back, closes off the pump input and then opens the return venting the pressure in the chamber to the pump.

Guys, best of luck, I know what I seen on my own car, it works....case closed....all you all want to suck vacuum, have at it....

:rain::rofl:
 
OK, this is a hydraulic system, not rocket science.... PSI - pounds per square inch or bar whatever you prefer.... no matter what assist you have, the required pressure in the calipers doesn't change ... if it takes 1000psi (example) to push the pads against the rotor to create enough friction to slow down this 3400lbs car then that's what it takes.... how you get there doesn't matter, without assist you just have to push the pedal harder.

The booster does not cure any problems in the hydraulic system, it simply can't.... if your brakes are not working properly you can't fix it by simply changing from no assist or vacuum assist to hydroboost.

The pressure that is required to slow down or stop your car is the same, regardless of what assist you have.
 
OK, this is a hydraulic system, not rocket science.... PSI - pounds per square inch or bar whatever you prefer.... no matter what assist you have, the required pressure in the calipers doesn't change ... if it takes 1000psi (example) to push the pads against the rotor to create enough friction to slow down this 3400lbs car then that's what it takes.... how you get there doesn't matter, without assist you just have to push the pedal harder.

The booster does not cure any problems in the hydraulic system, it simply can't.... if your brakes are not working properly you can't fix it by simply changing from no assist or vacuum assist to hydroboost.

The pressure that is required to slow down or stop your car is the same, regardless of what assist you have.


THAT is obviously the case, but there is mucho room for those boosters to act weird in their action.....and vac boosters have a certain 'feel' to them, and that is exacerbated by the boosters in stock sharks....Had a manual brake car from the git go I probably never bothered with any booster....
 
I don't believe you can judge brake performance on how easy you lock up all 4 wheels. If locking them up was better for braking,then why has all the manufactures gone to ABS. Locking up the wheels does nothing for stopping performance. Locking up up the wheels does nothing but make the car uncontrollable.
I bet you're vette cannot out stop mine and i vac assist.

That is completely correct. You do not want the brakes to lockup. :nuts:
 
I don't believe you can judge brake performance on how easy you lock up all 4 wheels. If locking them up was better for braking,then why has all the manufactures gone to ABS. Locking up the wheels does nothing for stopping performance. Locking up up the wheels does nothing but make the car uncontrollable.
I bet you're vette cannot out stop mine and i vac assist.

That is completely correct. You do not want the brakes to lockup. :nuts:

Who in hell like that feeling of something left on the table either???

about the only car I ever had with ABS, I THINK, was my '87 vette....only on ice could/would I lock the brakes...happened maybe twice in 3 years in Maryland....

:1st:
 
Gene, We got it. You think they are the "cat's meow." Fine, but to say it is the "cure all" for everyone is just a little overstated.
 
Gene, We got it. You think they are the "cat's meow." Fine, but to say it is the "cure all" for everyone is just a little overstated.


I agree. This is really a matter of personal preference. Like the Chevelle guy I talked to. He thought effortless brakes were just wonderful, I thought they were dangerous. Some people like effortless overboosted steering, some don't. Same deal.

But, as Jeff said, it's not everyone's preference.
 
No one mentioned valve cover to vacuum booster canister clearance. If you have a BB and put on a tall valve cover because you've installed a rocker arm stud girdle, you can have clearance problems?

After all I've read, I think I'd prefer to use the vacuum booster even if it meant buying a auxiliary electric vacuum pump (about $350 I think).

Oh. I did remove my vacuum booster this weekend. Damn, that was the worst, or certainly amoung the worst, things I've ever had to do. I came really close to removing the steering column to get at it, but eventually I did get it out. (Thanks to some tips on the forum).
 
I like the HB but I'm a bike guy :D

Pucker factor is overcooking into the bus stop at the end of the back straight at Pocono F-USA track, two fingers on the brake modulating the back wheel 2 inches in the air and needing to turn in yesterday...

IMHO anything that reduces effort to a degree helps you be smoother. Smoother is better at the edge

Do you practice with your brakes? have you done (safely) some maximum effort braking?

I have a modified system and have made a real panic stop in the last year. My initial stab at the brakes did lock them for a split second but I was able to modulate and steer around the issue...

I have auto crossed my car a couple of times and I'm happy with the performance. I don't think HB is any worst than the power brakes in any domestic car/truck i have driven at all and they have reasonable feed back and great pedal feel. Good pads and tires along with braided lines will do wonders for the brake feel.

but then I 'm a bit of a :waxer: :twitch:
 
I have hydro boost on my 80 and like it for track days. I find it much smoother effort and I'm able to modulate the brakes better.

My 1100S BMW motorcycle also has a semi hydro boost system alond with ABS. I also run it at track days. It does sound a bit funny when you pull the lever and the pump starts running. The lever activates the pump servo and presure is then sent to the caliper (caliper and lever fluids are separate)
 
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