PROCOMP sbc cylinder heads

4000 ?? you must mean aluminum block. Eitehr way, with the price of LS engines, there's no reason to waste money on an aluminum GenI SBC, the LS is better in every aspect. I've been eyeballing the front distributor drive for the LS, would be cool to just run a carb and a dizzy on the front, eliminate the coil packs and all. People here wouldn't know WTF you were running.
 
FYI - the LS front cover uses a FORD distributor and fuel pump! That will really confuse people! Nice pice of machine work but the cost is steep.
 
Twin_Turbo said:
4000 ?? you must mean aluminum block. Eitehr way, with the price of LS engines, there's no reason to waste money on an aluminum GenI SBC, the LS is better in every aspect. I've been eyeballing the front distributor drive for the LS, would be cool to just run a carb and a dizzy on the front, eliminate the coil packs and all. People here wouldn't know WTF you were running.
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I totally agree about LS engines, but they are hard to find at an affordable price. One guy locally has a 76 Vette with a carbed LS1/ TH350 with just a mild cam and running 12.2 all day long with a 3.36 gear. It wore a Holley 750 CFM carburetor and used a computer eliminator box. It kept the stock reluctor and coils for fire. He has since rebuilt the motor with AFR heads and internals to match, but it has been close to a year and nothing but problems, from what I've heard. I lost touch with him, maybe I'll send him an email. I'm not an engine guru and not familiar with a distributor available to fire an LS engine. I thought they all used a reluctor up front?
 
hrdp_0811_05_z+lsx_block+front_cover.jpg
 
I'm glad you're not having any problems. I personally would not buy any heads (or any engine parts) from China. It's not just a quality issue for me, it's political.
But this isn't the right section for that....
 
Red said:
Twin_Turbo said:
hrdp_0811_05_z+lsx_block+front_cover.jpg
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Yup...that distributor and cover looks purdy slick http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/LS-Front-Distributor-Drive-Cover-88958679-P1452C0.aspx , but at $500 less dist, plus $700 for the computer eliminator box and intake, the cost can get out of control real easy. For the budget minded, a mild Gen1 engine is still attractive. If I hadn't bought all those lottery tickets, maybe I could afford an LSx motor.
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YUp that is pretty slick ok, I see GM cast on the dizzy box there, cute....

anyway, IF I was doing another engine today, not any issue it would be a LS something...but as it is, I can't see it bringing 4000 MIN cost of extras to the table....even IF I doubled (impossible) my 18 mpg on today's gas...it would take a century to break even....

:beer:
 
Red said:
Thanks arneoe, another point of interest is that you cc'ed the chambers to find they are all equal in volume. My thought this lends testamony to the quality of the casting; unless they were machined, and that doesn't appear to have been done. Also, I notice yout heads are going on a 383 and what I decided to do with my 3970010, four bolt two piece main seal block. It will be decked to get as much compression possible with pump gas. My plan is to spend the extra bucks and make it a roller motor.

Maybe, you can share some of the particulars of your build like what rotating assembly and cam you chose? My experience building engines has been limited to stock motors with an overbore, so I'm on that learning curve. Next Monday, while I'm in the area, I am going to stop at Murray's Speed and Custom to see if he still has those Patriot heads I mentioned. If he lets me, I will take a few pictures to post here for comparison; if you don't mind?
I agree with what you say about some attitudes about those China heads. I'm sure at one time there were casting problems, but it seems they have been solved and a thing of the past. Thanks again for posting your finding!
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As I said, below are the photos I took of the Patriot heads at my local Murray's Speed and Custom. I must admit, the heads he had on display were not the same as I had seen and remember. These heads did not look CNC ported, but had been hand ported. Maybe, that is why the last heads had one valve out of each head to show off the port work and these did not. He also had a pair of Pro Comp heads on display, but they were also already port matched, so I suspect he, or someone else is doing the port work.
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These don't show much, but it is all I could get. While I was there, the owner showed me an LS1 engine he had in the back and said this is what you want. When I mentioned the cost, he threw some unbelieveable low price he paid for the engine and HP parts he had found over time. This was his personal engine to be used in a car he has. Hey...he is in the business and is exposed to way more deals than I'm ever going to find. That said, I'll keep looking and see what turns up. If not, I know where I can find cheap heads to bolt on my Gen1 block.
 
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Hi Red, nice to see the photos you took of the Patriot heads at the Murray's Speed and Custom. These heads are as you indicated not CNC ported, but just gasket matched, probably by hand. I have not inspected these cylinder heads myself, but it seems like they have a reasonable flow as cast for mild street engine builds. I'll try to do some work on my PROCOMPs next week and hopefully I have some more information to post as I progress. If you have some more information about the Patriots Red, I'll appreciate sharing your findings.

As for the roller cam; I don't think that the 3970010 block is well suited for such. I would choose a flat tappet cam to be safe.:)

Arne
 
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clutchdust said:
I'm glad you're not having any problems. I personally would not buy any heads (or any engine parts) from China. It's not just a quality issue for me, it's political.
But this isn't the right section for that....
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Yes I do agree with you ...:chinese:... it's political. Please read my posting #1. ... Hopefully I'll won't hurt anybody's feelings by my posting here on VM?:) .... I got heavy "flak" from the big guns:pprrtt: on CF... so please not again ....:lol:


Arne
 
arneoe said:
Hi Red, nice to see the photos you took of the Patriot heads at the Murray's Speed and Custom. These heads are as you indicated not CNC ported, but just gasket matched, probably by hand. I have not inspected these cylinder heads myself, but it seems like they have a reasonable flow as cast for mild street engine builds. I'll try to do some work on my PROCOMPs next week and hopefully I have some more information to post as I progress. If you have some more information about the Patriots Red, I'll appreciate sharing your findings.

As for the roller cam; I don't think that the 3970010 block is well suited for such. I would choose a flat tappet cam to be safe.:)

Arne
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I never did get to see the Patriot head valve pockets, but think thay have been ported. After talking with a few other engine builders, they say the CNC porting is OK for FI cas, as the spray amomizes the fuel. Carburetors need the rough tool marks to help in this process. The CNC porting is too smooth for a carburetor fueled car. I'm going to look into this some more. Sometime in October I should be ready to buy my heads.

Recently, I spoke with a CF member who built his original 73 Corvette two bolt block using a cast crank, Edel 64 cc 170 heads, CC roller cam .510 and Holley 750 carb. It was dynoed at the builders shop to make 440 HP. My high nickle 010 four bolt block should do similar with a more aggressive cam and 190 runners in the heads. The two piece MS block will take a roller cam if you use the more expensive bar type roller lifters. My block will be decked, just like the engine built by the member and used as an example. It runs fine on 93 octane PG with a 10.25 CR. This is my plan, but anything can happen. Right now I'm still trying to fully understand the work done on the Patriot heads I'm looking at. I need to see the valve pockets. If it isn't fully ported, I may just do a set myself and save a little money.

A concern with porting an aluminum head is removing too much material. Aluminum comes out real fast and that is my fear. I've done iron heads with great results. My experience with aluminum, using my aluminum burrs, has been scarry. Maybe, it was just a soft alloy, but it was gone in a flash.
 
CNC porting.

I bought a pair of Brodix Track 1 heads for my 434 small block stroker. They were cnc machined and the intake runners were not smooth......they had little tiny machined "steps" or ridges around the entire intake runners. .


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This helps atomize fuel in your engine. It is hard to see in the pic and in person the ridges are much more noticeable and easy to feel.

The reason fuel injected engines dont need help with atomization is because the fuel is being sprayed into each port directly. So it is already atomizing.

While on a car with a carb fuel is sprayed into the intake and then flows into the runners, without much atomization....it works but isnt the best process.

For anyone who is not sure what atomization is......here is a simple explanation. It is the process where fuel is broken up into a bunch of smaller drops allowing it to burn more efficiently. Its like turning your garden hose from full stream to mist

~~~the pic is not of the heads I bought, but a photo of Brodix heads I found on the intenet.~~~~ My heads cost around 1750 and were not cheap........brodia track ones 1150 cnc track ones 1750 steep!
 
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If you go for the Patriots, I think they'll work quite well as cast ....and you'll not gain much from hand porting. The Patriots dry flow numbers in low/medium lifts will be more than sufficient for mild street builds. Find your self a cam that will be a good combo with your cylinder heads and CR.

Red, start a new thread here on VM about your project and you'll get good help from the real experts. ... At last, just a friendly Warning to you; don't post positive remarks about Patriot cylinder heads on CF.... I have nasty exprience!:rofl:
Good luck

Arne
 
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Just some information of intrest.... I found on YouTube .... for porting the PROCOMPs and other heads. On my PROCOMPs I did not find much imperferctions inside the runner and I think they were big anought for my use as is, but anyway:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmOc7xOLqsM[/ame]

Arne
 
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He talks about the intake port and says "where the bolt goes through" that's not where the bolt goes through, that ridge is from the pushrod hole. It's real easy to break through there.

Real porting is not just cleaning stuff up and hogging stuff out or port matching, it's reshaping the port and bowl contour to improve flow in such a way that it suits your engine. Usually this involves reshaping the short and long side radius and port roof as well as minor port floor work and work on the port to bowl transition. Often modifying the port bias to the side of the bowl to more efficiently swirl the mixture past the valve. That's the real trick where it concerns the transition from port to bowl, getting the mixture to swing past the port and then also reshaping the chamber to the bore diameter to reduce valve shrouding.

He says there's nothing scientific about it but really..there is and it's very easy to f-up a head and make it flow worse. If you don't know what you're doing, just clean the port up, smooth it out and work the bowl and guides and leave it at that. Professional porters have learned from a lot of trial and error and testing, it's as much magic as it's science.
 
arneoe said:
Just some information of intrest for porting the PROCOMPs and other heads. I did not find much imperferctions inside the runner on my heads and I think they were big anought for my use as is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmOc7xOLqsM

Arne
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It sounds like you have put a lot of thought into porting your heads. What you have done looks good to me. For a street engine you will be way ahead of most guys who just bolt on a pair of untouched heads and go. The serious racers wouldn't use those heads anyway, runner volume is too small, and have way more tools at their disposal for porting than 'shade tree mechanics.' They are fighting for every last HP in a heads up racing environment.

I did exactly the same as you, making the exhaust port slightly larger than the gasket and solved it the same as you, but on iron heads. Blending the valve boss is an important part of the job and I thought you demonstrated it well. Thanks for taking the time to illistrate what needs to be done in a basic port job. The best I can do is provide some fuzzy photos, but I will try and take some after buying my Patriot heads. You had to unleash some free HP as a result of your effort and that's the idea.
 
I'd be really interested to know how these "Chineese" heads compare to stock GM heads. sometimes it takes $400-500 of machine work to restore factory heads. These have new valves, new guides, new keepers, and they are aluminum. The "Japaneese' used to make perfect imitations of the original. I wonder what the Chineese heads used as a mold?
Bee Jay
 
Stock GM heads are thin castings with thin decks, small chambers and small valves. The L98 head won't even accept 2.02 & 1.6 valves, they simply don't fit the chambers. Not saying the Chinese heads are better but GM heads aren't all that either.
 
Twin_Turbo said:
Stock GM heads are thin castings with thin decks, small chambers and small valves. The L98 head won't even accept 2.02 & 1.6 valves, they simply don't fit the chambers. Not saying the Chinese heads are better but GM heads aren't all that either.
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So, in your opinion, it's better to spend $400-500 on a set of these heads instead of spending $350-450 to rebuild a set of iron oem heads?
Bee Jay
 
Iron heads? Yes, certainly. I figured you were talking about aluminum heads.
 
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