UAW wages to blame?

Ford is not doing great. Gm is not. Chrysler is not. Airlines are not. Wallstreet is not. Banks are not. Realtors are not. Retail is not.
Dam, them unions ARE powerfull. They are taking out the whole nation.:rofl:
 
big2bird said:
Okay, I am not in that sort of job bank. I can see how it got started though.
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The job banks were started in the 80's as a concession to by the UAW to allow the car companies to introduce automation into the assembly process. The UAW wanted to protect jobs that would be replaced by assembly robots.

big2bird said:
Like any rule with good intent, people look for the loophole and abuse it. Kinda like 7 corporate jets.
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If you are alluding to the fact that the big shots from the auto companies showed up in corporate jets, do you remember ANYTHING being said about the UAW guys showing up in private jets? No, that apparently OK.

big2bird said:
Union labor has been giving concessions for years, while management salaries have been going thru the roof.
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Management salaries are not a significant contributor to overhead costs for a vehicle. As a comparison, the job banks cost 1 Billion dollars a year (big 3 and suppliers like Visteon and Delphi)! Also 100's of thousands of retired UAW are on full pensions. Who knows how much that costs.

big2bird said:
How do you explain FORD not needing any money, while they use the same workers?:goodevil:
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Simple, Ford has traditionally done well in other countries around the world. They are also #1 in trucks and large vehicles (where the profit is, or used to be). There is absolutely no profit in small cars for the Big 3. Also worth note, the labor component for a small car is about the same as a truck.
 
I`m all for saving the General and Ford (Chrysler I`m not too sure about because it`s a privately owned company) but unless they get their "costs" in line they will be back at the trough again and again and again....paying people NOT to work (jobs bank) is and was wrong, paying retirees health care FOREVER is wrong, overpaying management with huge salaries and bonuses is wrong....whoever negotiated those contracts for the car makers should be out on his ass....after he/they are beaten with a 2X4.
 
redvetracr said:
I`m all for saving the General and Ford (Chrysler I`m not too sure about because it`s a privately owned company) but unless they get their "costs" in line they will be back at the trough again and again and again....paying people NOT to work (jobs bank) is and was wrong, paying retirees health care FOREVER is wrong, overpaying management with huge salaries and bonuses is wrong....whoever negotiated those contracts for the car makers should be out on his ass....after he/they are beaten with a 2X4.
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FWIW, Chrysler's private investor owners have plenty of money to keep it afloat for a bit. THey don't need taxpayer money.
 
redvetracr said:
I`m all for saving the General and Ford (Chrysler I`m not too sure about because it`s a privately owned company) but unless they get their "costs" in line they will be back at the trough again and again and again....paying people NOT to work (jobs bank) is and was wrong, paying retirees health care FOREVER is wrong, overpaying management with huge salaries and bonuses is wrong....whoever negotiated those contracts for the car makers should be out on his ass....after he/they are beaten with a 2X4.
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I like the beating idea! It could be a pay-per-view public flogging that could generate enough $ to keep the car companies going. Great idea:bounce:
 
Jsup said:
redvetracr said:
I`m all for saving the General and Ford (Chrysler I`m not too sure about because it`s a privately owned company) but unless they get their "costs" in line they will be back at the trough again and again and again....paying people NOT to work (jobs bank) is and was wrong, paying retirees health care FOREVER is wrong, overpaying management with huge salaries and bonuses is wrong....whoever negotiated those contracts for the car makers should be out on his ass....after he/they are beaten with a 2X4.
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FWIW, Chrysler's private investor owners have plenty of money to keep it afloat for a bit. THey don't need taxpayer money.
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need and want are two different things.....although I believe if they take the money they will have to open their "books" something else they don`t want to do....more rewards for bad behavior.
 
Blame the unions, the job banks, management, CEO salaries, Lawyers, Politicians - whoever. It's human nature, point the finger away from yourself and at someone else. So we are all to blame, I still want to know what you can come up with to fix the situation. We are an intelligent group, we can troubleshoot, problem solve and engineer our 'Vettes into the individual beauties that they are. Let's apply ourselves to the problem instead of beating a dead horse!

:beer::beer:

I still think it's going to take more than 1 beer.....
 
Jsup said:
redvetracr said:
I`m all for saving the General and Ford (Chrysler I`m not too sure about because it`s a privately owned company) but unless they get their "costs" in line they will be back at the trough again and again and again....paying people NOT to work (jobs bank) is and was wrong, paying retirees health care FOREVER is wrong, overpaying management with huge salaries and bonuses is wrong....whoever negotiated those contracts for the car makers should be out on his ass....after he/they are beaten with a 2X4.
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FWIW, Chrysler's private investor owners have plenty of money to keep it afloat for a bit. THey don't need taxpayer money.
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Yes, but Cerberus is all about making money, not about making cars, they could care less....and since Chrysler isn't making any money....oops!!!
 
Twin_Turbo said:
Jsup said:
redvetracr said:
I`m all for saving the General and Ford (Chrysler I`m not too sure about because it`s a privately owned company) but unless they get their "costs" in line they will be back at the trough again and again and again....paying people NOT to work (jobs bank) is and was wrong, paying retirees health care FOREVER is wrong, overpaying management with huge salaries and bonuses is wrong....whoever negotiated those contracts for the car makers should be out on his ass....after he/they are beaten with a 2X4.
Click to expand...

FWIW, Chrysler's private investor owners have plenty of money to keep it afloat for a bit. THey don't need taxpayer money.
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Yes, but Cerberus is all about making money, not about making cars, they could care less....and since Chrysler isn't making any money....oops!!!
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Quite true but you can't EAT writeoffs....that would probably be 1/2 of Cb's assets right there....one shot down the drain....they aint going to do THAT too easy either.....Ch in BK would be worth a roll of TP.....

:crap:
 
DeeVeeEight said:
Blame the unions, the job banks, management, CEO salaries, Lawyers, Politicians - whoever. It's human nature, point the finger away from yourself and at someone else. So we are all to blame, I still want to know what you can come up with to fix the situation. We are an intelligent group, we can troubleshoot, problem solve and engineer our 'Vettes into the individual beauties that they are. Let's apply ourselves to the problem instead of beating a dead horse!

:beer::beer:

I still think it's going to take more than 1 beer.....
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They need to hire some ex execs from Toyota/Nissan/Honda, then listen to them.:thumbs:
 
So you are implying that the non union business practices of those manufacturers are part of the solution?
I know you are a union electrician and I am not trying to put you on the spot, but it does sound like a viable solution.
What are the pro's and con's of Toyota/Nissan/Honda's business plan? Can the big 3 live by those rules, can the UAW swallow that? The UAW I think not.... seems the UAW might go the way of the dinosoar.
 
DeeVeeEight said:
So you are implying that the non union business practices of those manufacturers are part of the solution?
I know you are a union electrician and I am not trying to put you on the spot, but it does sound like a viable solution.
What are the pro's and con's of Toyota/Nissan/Honda's business plan? Can the big 3 live by those rules, can the UAW swallow that? The UAW I think not.... seems the UAW might go the way of the dinosoar.
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I am not implying anything. Everyone involved needs to realise the gravity of the situation, and do their part. The union will feel pressure from the group to get the best deal possible, but will comply with realistic requests if it saves their jobs.
I was told once a story about when automation started. The president of GM told the President of the UAW,"See those robots? They are going to replace all you guys." The UAW president responded,"Okay. Who's going to buy your cars?"
This goes with what Henry Ford did. He paid the workers enough to afford to but his product.
If Henry was alive, he could solve this mess. Although he would be livid about dealing with todays laws and regulations.
 
Kind of reminds me of a time back in the '70's a company I worked for wanted to set up a booth at a computer convention downtown N.Y. Simple enough, no? We were advised that in order to do so, we had to have union trucks deliver the equipment, union guys unload the stuff, union electricians plug in the lights and equipment. Then when the convention was over...do it all over again, using only union workers. Jeez...no wonder the unions are in demise. Can't take a piss without a union worker holding your wiener.:suicide:
 
Fact of the matter is, Management made consessions, the UAW hasn't. End of story.

No one is to blame here but the UAW at this point. The deserve what they get.
 
big_G said:
Kind of reminds me of a time back in the '70's a company I worked for wanted to set up a booth at a computer convention downtown N.Y. Simple enough, no? We were advised that in order to do so, we had to have union trucks deliver the equipment, union guys unload the stuff, union electricians plug in the lights and equipment. Then when the convention was over...do it all over again, using only union workers. Jeez...no wonder the unions are in demise. Can't take a piss without a union worker holding your wiener.:suicide:
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Yep, no exaggeration, $200 to plug a plug into a socket. No kidding.
 
Anybody at any time for any situation can come up with a specific item to use as an excuse to dismiss an entire set of behaviors by another group.
I have zoomed through school zones at 50 MPH and gotten away with it. Does that mean I should & could ignore all school zones from now on? I have also been pulled over & ticketed for reasons that both the officer & I knew to be patently fraudulent. Does that mean every policeman is crooked? Of course not. Gene is obviously insane :D and he lives in Florida. Does that mean everyone who lives in Florida is insane? (well maybe that's not a good example...)
There is a bigger more universal cause at stake here. Individual infractions (which includes hundreds or even thousands of infractions out of millions of conscientious & correct actions) will always occur.
You want to cut off your nose to spite your face? It is a larger change, a change in the societal way of thinking & behaving which needs to happen. Unfortunately, when you put a group of huge egos who stand to reap great wealth in charge of the very things they can get rich from, these problems arise.
If you put the foxes in charge of guarding the henhouse, they will act properly for a while. But after the chickens get used to thier presence, the foxes will begin taking the plumpest in the dark of night. When the foxes become too brazen and the chickens finally realize what is going on, they may revolt, but their revolution will be in directed in the wrong way because they are stupid fucking chickens. They will peck each others eyes out & destroy each other in an orgy of casting blame upon those they do not like or agree with. Meanwhile the foxes just sit back and watch, laughing, and as the dust and the feathers fly they will jump in unnoticed and take the juiciest ones, as well as the smarter ones who are tryng to show the stupid chickens the place where their rage should be directed.
That's what we have going on now, a chicken revolt spurred on by the foxes, and the foxes are sitting in a circle watching & grinning. After the feathers settle to the earth and the blood dries in the dust, the chickens will come to find that they have even less than they did before, and the foxes have become even more powerful and arrogant yet.
The chickens need to quit pecking each others eyes out and go after the foxes eyes in a concerted effort. Many chickens will die but it is the only way to stop the foxes. Too bad we have become a society of chickens. It's easier to peck other chickens eyes out than to attack a fox.

Oh gosh I have to go now--American Idol is on & it's like my most favorite show!!
cluck cluck y'all
 
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JPhil said:
Anybody at any time for any situation can come up with a specific item to use as an excuse to dismiss an entire set of behaviors by another group.
I have zoomed through school zones at 50 MPH and gotten away with it. Does that mean I should & could ignore all school zones from now on? I have also been pulled over & ticketed for reasons that both the officer & I knew to be patently fraudulent. Does that mean every policeman is crooked? Of course not. Gene is obviously insane :D and he lives in Florida. Does that mean everyone who lives in Florida is insane? (well maybe that's not a good example...)
There is a bigger more universal cause at stake here. Individual infractions (which includes hundreds or even thousands of infractions out of millions of conscientious & correct actions) will always occur.
You want to cut off your nose to spite your face? It is a larger change, a change in the societal way of thinking & behaving which needs to happen. Unfortunately, when you put a group of huge egos who stand to reap great wealth in charge of the very things they can get rich from, these problems arise.
If you put the foxes in charge of guarding the henhouse, they will act properly for a while. But after the chickens get used to thier presence, the foxes will begin taking the plumpest in the dark of night. When the foxes become too brazen and the chickens finally realize what is going on, they may revolt, but their revolution will be in directed in the wrong way because they are stupid fucking chickens. They will peck each others eyes out & destroy each other in an orgy of casting blame upon those they do not like or agree with. Meanwhile the foxes just sit back and watch, laughing, and as the dust and the feathers fly they will jump in unnoticed and take the juiciest ones, as well as the smarter ones who are tryng to show the stupid chickens the place where their rage should be directed.
That's what we have going on now, a chicken revolt spurred on by the foxes, and the foxes are sitting in a circle watching & grinning. After the feathers settle to the earth and the blood dries in the dust, the chickens will come to find that they have even less than they did before, and the foxes have become even more powerful and arrogant yet.
The chickens need to quit pecking each others eyes out and go after the foxes eyes in a concerted effort. Many chickens will die but it is the only way to stop the foxes. Too bad we have become a society of chickens. It's easier to peck other chickens eyes out than to attack a fox.

Oh gosh I have to go now--American Idol is on & it's like my most favorite show!!
cluck cluck y'all
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Perhaps I'm just a simpleton, but I don't get it. Who's the chicken? How are we poking anyone's eyes out?

What exactly does this have to do with the point.
 
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kwplot34 said:
JPhil said:
Gene is obviously insane :D and he lives in Florida. Does that mean everyone who lives in Florida is insane?

cluck cluck y'all
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:rofl::rofl: That is way to funny :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
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UHH, I not seen the first HINT of snow in 12 years now....

so just WHO is nutz???? :bullshit::lol:

I take my palm trees and tropical plants....just ask TimAT....

:stirpot:
 
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