Titan 0.062" Copper Headgaskets

arneoe

arneoe

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Hokksund
I have ordered a 0.062" thick copper headgaskets (SCE-T11066) to lower static compression ratio from approx 10.5 :1 to 9.5:1. Using 383CUI block and Procomp 210cc (PC3003S) alus with 68cc combustion chambers. Any issues regarding theese TITAN .062 gaskets?

http://www.goodvibesracing.com/titan_hg.htm

I have a set of FEL-PRO 0.041"s in reserve.

rgds
Arne
 
Isn't there some issue with using copper head gaskets on an iron block w/ aluminum heads? I returned some copper gaskets a while back because (I think) when I got them it said on the package not to use w/aluminum heads.
 
BBShark said:
Isn't there some issue with using copper head gaskets on an iron block w/ aluminum heads? I returned some copper gaskets a while back because (I think) when I got them it said on the package not to use w/aluminum heads.
Click to expand...

I was wondering about that....talk of a 'copper top' battery....:nuts:
 
I don't think the issue is electrolytic, I think it is the difference in expansion.

I think racers like copper becuse they are reusable and perform well for a car with limited miles between teardown.

Found this at Flatout Gaskets. But the article talks about improvements to copper to fix these issues:

With most builders settled and satisfied with their personal choices in the combustion seal area for their applications, industry focus has switched mainly to fluid sealing. Many racing engine head/block combinations are bi-metal (aluminum head with cast-iron block) which increases the challenge. Thermal rates of expansion differ tremendously between the two materials and the resultant scrubbing effect can play havoc on a gasket’s sealing surface, especially around coolant or oil ports. Although in theory this certainly holds some merit by allowing the soft copper to actually embed into the fluid port areas, it also sacrifices combustion seal strength. Still, although the fluid sealability may improve by “mechanically clinching” or clamping the copper in the port areas, once the “thermal scrubbing” effect was added, the gasket effectiveness would be brought into jeopardy.
 
BBShark said:
I don't think the issue is electrolytic, I think it is the difference in expansion.

I think racers like copper becuse they are reusable and perform well for a car with limited miles between teardown.

.....
Click to expand...

The Titan Head Gaskets cost 3 times stock head gaskets and the advert says that these are the World’s first self sealing copper head gaskets and that they are made of a soft copper which makes them ready for installation out of the box. That is very convienent if compared with other copper head gaskets which often need extra sealing around water channels and steel rings around cylinder bore surface. Any comments on this?

rgds
Arne
 
arneoe said:
I have ordered a 0.062" thick copper headgaskets (SCE-T11066) to lower static compression ratio from approx 10.5 :1 to 9.5:1. Using 383CUI block and Procomp 210cc (PC3003S) alus with 68cc combustion chambers. Any issues regarding theese TITAN .062 gaskets?

http://www.goodvibesracing.com/titan_hg.htm

I have a set of FEL-PRO 0.041"s in reserve.

rgds
Arne
Click to expand...

Is your block '0' decked? Even so, a quench of 0.062 is not ideal. If not decked, you may be subject to detonation.
 
glen242 said:
Is your block '0' decked? Even so, a quench of 0.062 is not ideal. If not decked, you may be subject to detonation.
Click to expand...

Please state the ideal "quench" height when detonation is not a subject? The engine has flat top pistons (5cc), standard sbc 350 block height, 54 degr. overlap seat to seat and Vortec like chambers (68cc).

rgds
Arne
 
arneoe said:
glen242 said:
Is your block '0' decked? Even so, a quench of 0.062 is not ideal. If not decked, you may be subject to detonation.
Click to expand...

Please state the ideal "quench" height when detonation is not a subject? The engine has flat top pistons (5cc), standard sbc 350 block height, 54 degr. overlap seat to seat and Vortec like chambers (68cc).

rgds
Arne
Click to expand...

I have been led to believe that 0.040-0.045 is the ideal quench. 0.062 + depth of piston in the hole may give you (0.062 + 0.025) a quench of 0.087, which is no quench (squish) at all.

Why are you tring to reduce your static CR? Were you having problems? 10.50 is not bad. I run 10.30 in my stroker (8.2 dynamic CR) on 89 octane fuel without a problem. I do have aluminum heads.

I also heard, that using a thicker head gasket to reduce CR may also increase the likelyhood of detonation. I have no experience with this, but several on this forum have mentioned this.

I hope others will comment on this, also.
 
glen242 said:
I have been led to believe that 0.040-0.045 is the ideal quench. 0.062 + depth of piston in the hole may give you (0.062 + 0.025) a quench of 0.087, which is no quench (squish) at all.

Why are you tring to reduce your static CR? Were you having problems? 10.50 is not bad. I run 10.30 in my stroker (8.2 dynamic CR) on 89 octane fuel without a problem. I do have aluminum heads.

I also heard, that using a thicker head gasket to reduce CR may also increase the likelyhood of detonation. I have no experience with this, but several on this forum have mentioned this.

I hope others will comment on this, also.
Click to expand...

Thank you... very good information! Now I got picture of what you have read and what you have actually experienced.

Currently, I do not have any detonation problems. The engine I refer to has never been run, but is dwelling in my garage waiting to be installed, hopefully this summer.

The motor is a complete crate 383CUI / 360HP with near stock iron smog heads and a XE268H cam. The CR is 9.6:1 and will probably work fine as it is on pump gas. The plan was to install the motor as is and buy an extra set of cylinder heads to do some porting in my free time while preparing my second motor build (a mild tuned 350). I bought a set of ProComp PC3003 aluminium, which turned out to be much better than I expected. The experts have done my job…. not much improvement needed for street use. The intake runners on the ProComp (probably an Edelbrock E-200 clone, Vortec extra high intake runners) are much bigger than on my Edelbrock #27164 EPS (Vortec) and I have to do some gasket matching on the manifold prior to installation. You see the alu cylinder heads could easily be swapped prior to engine installation.

So back to my small dilemma; which head gasket should I use? I have to choose between:

(1) Titan 0.062” racing copper gaskets
(2) FelPro 0.041” near stock gaskets

With the 0.041" gaskets I will have approx the same static CR as you. What is your cam overlap?

Best regards
Arne
 
Same problem I had when I built my 383: piston choice (forged) is limited to -5cc flat tops or domed pistons that bump the CR too high with 64cc heads. I used forged KB pistons with -17cc dish and a thin .028" MrGasket head gasket to get the CR close to 10:1 with good quench. (block was decked to 9.005")

With your standard deck height the piston is probably .025-.030 in the hole. Measure that distance before you order any gaskets. .070-.080 quench is not all that great.

If the cam bleeds off enough compression you might be able to get away with a thin .028" head gasket

run the numbers here:
http://www.race-cars.net/calculators/compression_calculator.html

assuming -5cc pistons, .030 overbore, gasket plus piston in the hole =.050" and 68cc chambers it's 10.5: 1, with 64cc heads it's 10.8:1

Machining the heads to 70cc might be another option ??
 
MYBAD79 said:
Same problem I had when I built my 383: piston choice (forged) is limited to -5cc flat tops or domed pistons that bump the CR too high with 64cc heads. I used forged KB pistons with -17cc dish and a thin .028" MrGasket head gasket to get the CR close to 10:1 with good quench. (block was decked to 9.005")

With your standard deck height the piston is probably .025-.030 in the hole. Measure that distance before you order any gaskets. .070-.080 quench is not all that great.

If the cam bleeds off enough compression you might be able to get away with a thin .028" head gasket

run the numbers here:
http://www.race-cars.net/calculators/compression_calculator.html

assuming -5cc pistons, .030 overbore, gasket plus piston in the hole =.050" and 68cc chambers it's 10.5: 1, with 64cc heads it's 10.8:1

Machining the heads to 70cc might be another option ??
Click to expand...

I have looked at your calculations and they seem a little on the high side, but I agree as you say try to get close to 10:1 for 95octane (by EU standards). The pistons are SpeedPro #H860CP30 and the given values are 10.4:1 for 64cc, 9.97:1 for 68cc and 9.57:1 for 72cc.

I am not so sure about this "quench" theory, that a lot of people talk about. If a change of plus 0.025" deck hight could change the flame front during combustion and result in detonation with less CR seems a little strange to me. These are Vortecs not old Camel Humps. What say?

rgds
Arne
 
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arneoe said:
glen242 said:
I have been led to believe that 0.040-0.045 is the ideal quench. 0.062 + depth of piston in the hole may give you (0.062 + 0.025) a quench of 0.087, which is no quench (squish) at all.

Why are you tring to reduce your static CR? Were you having problems? 10.50 is not bad. I run 10.30 in my stroker (8.2 dynamic CR) on 89 octane fuel without a problem. I do have aluminum heads.

I also heard, that using a thicker head gasket to reduce CR may also increase the likelyhood of detonation. I have no experience with this, but several on this forum have mentioned this.

I hope others will comment on this, also.
Click to expand...

Thank you... very good information! Now I got picture of what you have read and what you have actually experienced.

Currently, I do not have any detonation problems. The engine I refer to has never been run, but is dwelling in my garage waiting to be installed, hopefully this summer.

The motor is a complete crate 383CUI / 360HP with near stock iron smog heads and a XE268H cam. The CR is 9.6:1 and will probably work fine as it is on pump gas. The plan was to install the motor as is and buy an extra set of cylinder heads to do some porting in my free time while preparing my second motor build (a mild tuned 350). I bought a set of ProComp PC3003 aluminium, which turned out to be much better than I expected. The experts have done my job…. not much improvement needed for street use. The intake runners on the ProComp (probably an Edelbrock E-200 clone, Vortec extra high intake runners) are much bigger than on my Edelbrock #27164 EPS (Vortec) and I have to do some gasket matching on the manifold prior to installation. You see the alu cylinder heads could easily be swapped prior to engine installation.

So back to my small dilemma; which head gasket should I use? I have to choose between:

(1) Titan 0.062” racing copper gaskets
(2) FelPro 0.041” near stock gaskets

With the 0.041" gaskets I will have approx the same static CR as you. What is your cam overlap?

Best regards
Arne
Click to expand...

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

Using this calculator with your numbers and a 0.041 head gasket I get 9.97.

I was told that piston manufacturers rated their piston using a '0' deck value not the stock deck height. Much better to use a calculator with YOUR values.

The important cam number is the degree, ABDC, that the intake valve closes. A larger number will bleed off more compression. My XE274H closes the intake @62*ABDC.

I ran a CC 268H cam in my 350. Did not think it would perform in my 383 as I wanted it to, hence the XE274H. This is a 99.9% street car.

A lot of people believe that static CR is more important than dynamic CR. There are static CR calculators available on the net. BTW, my calculated static CR is 8.2, and runs fine on the mid octane 89.

Run your numbers, but from what I see, I would run the 0.041 Fel-Pro. That is what I am running.
 
glen242 said:
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

Using this calculator with your numbers and a 0.041 head gasket I get 9.97.

I was told that piston manufacturers rated their piston using a '0' deck value not the stock deck height. Much better to use a calculator with YOUR values.

The important cam number is the degree, ABDC, that the intake valve closes. A larger number will bleed off more compression. My XE274H closes the intake @62*ABDC.

I ran a CC 268H cam in my 350. Did not think it would perform in my 383 as I wanted it to, hence the XE274H. This is a 99.9% street car.

A lot of people believe that static CR is more important than dynamic CR. There are static CR calculators available on the net. BTW, my calculated static CR is 8.2, and runs fine on the mid octane 89.

Run your numbers, but from what I see, I would run the 0.041 Fel-Pro. That is what I am running.
Click to expand...

Thank you for information. The XE274H is a good alternative to the XE286H for a mild tuned street car using hydraulic flat tapped set up. The overlap is 60 degrs, 6 degrs longer than the XE268H. Nice to hear that you can use 89 octane, which probably is close to our EU 95 octane. Hopefully this will work for me also. It is handy with all these refered computer programs, and I also frequently use computer programs to get an indication of what is going to happen with different set ups. I will liquid measure the compression chamber(s) and piston/block resulting volume. The smog heads must come of first. Adding the given 9.1cc compressed gasket volume (as per the Fel-Pro 0.041") it is easy to calculate the static CR manually when all volumes are dead correct.

best regards
Arne
 
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