A Toyota Dilemma

68/70Vette

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Of course, they need to solve their throttle problem. But on the other hand, you can speculate they have a motive to not find the cause of the problem. The fact that the cause of their Sudden Unintended Acceleration (SUA) is unknown does help them, and the vendors who sold them the throttle system components, avoid lawsuits. It's difficult to sue someone for negligence if you can't say what it was that they did negligently.

Boeing had an analogous problem when they introduced the 737. There were rare occurrences where the rudder would suddenly and momentarily make a full deflection. This would cause a violent roll and dive motion. For a while, the occurrences were at altitude and the pilots would regain control. Finally a 737 was on approach to land at Colorado Springs, and it happened again. This time the plane was so low to the ground, there was not sufficient time to regain control. Everyone died. I read an ariticle in Aviation Week detailing how the rudder system worked. The system was flybywire with electronics, electromechanical and hydraulic. Everything was triple redundant, majority voting. An explanation of how it worked made Boeings claim there was no known fault that would cause the problem, seem credible. Boeing solved the problem, by redesigning the entire rudder system with all new components with an entirely different implementation. The problem went away. Did someone in Boeing actually know what the cause was?


For Boeing to throw up their hands and just replace everything was possible due to the small number of aircraft that were produced. For Toyota this would be a catastropically expensive solution.

A good guess is that something inside the power control module is causing the computer to output a full throttle signal to the throttle body.

In my job, I'm involved in working with contractors to find the cause of failures in government purchased items. Often, its easy to think the contractor is working as hard as they can to NOT find the cause of the problem.
 
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Olde ET here from the vacuum tube daze yet, I can guaranfreekingTEE you that issue is electronic in nature, probable cause is bad grounding or grounding of a nature that the RIGHT/RONG EMI/RFI pulse hits that vehicle under the rong circumstances, and the computer goes nutz.....

which is why 'fly by wire' will never bee on any car I own....stupid idea anyway...freeking slip cable worth 5 bux, vs servos worth 25, which one is cheeper and more reliable???

:trumpet::flash::bonkers:
 
I find it intresting that they are now supplying replacement parts to the factories for new cars, and will supply replacement parts to the dealers later on to retro fit existing cars that could kill someone today.
Keep the money rolling in and worry about current owners later???

I also thought it was intresting to note that in a earlier press anouncement, they heavily stressed that the suspect parts were supplied by a American vender. Think this is true? Why would they need to stress this? To maintain face?
 
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What baffles me is that everyone is acclaiming Toyota for stepping up and making it right... WTF? They've been trying to keep this under the rug for a year, people have died or have been seriously injured. If this were one of the Detroit 3 the press would have them on the chopping blocks by now.

As for the rudder system you speak of, I think this was the problem with the hydraulic valve. Boeing said they had tested it but the thing only failed under specific circumstances, hot hydraulic fluid through a cold/frozen pump. I think an isolation blanket was the fix.
 
Glad to see someone made a thread about the Toyota gas pedal.
The little bit of info supplied by the press hasn't been clear if the Toyota's throttles are mechanical or "by wire throttle". :confused:
At first it was reported to be a floormat issue , then a mechanically sticking gas pedal , this is the first I've heard the "throttle by wire" talked about in the Toyota recall.
Does anyone here have one of theses cars that can shed some light on the confusion ?
 
CBS Sunday morning is about to have a segment on the topic. Lets see what they have to say:footmouth:

Guess I was wrong or I missed it. Sorry
 
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Olde ET here from the vacuum tube daze yet, I can guaranfreekingTEE you that issue is electronic in nature, probable cause is bad grounding or grounding of a nature that the RIGHT/RONG EMI/RFI pulse hits that vehicle under the rong circumstances, and the computer goes nutz.....

which is why 'fly by wire' will never bee on any car I own....stupid idea anyway...freeking slip cable worth 5 bux, vs servos worth 25, which one is cheeper and more reliable???

:trumpet::flash::bonkers:

Generally the FBW (fly by wire) system is more profitable for the automaker, along with helping to reduce vehicle weight. You have to remember that most cars have cruise control, also. With FBW all it takes to put cruise control in the vehicle is the cheap switch on the turn signal lever, and a bit change in the solftware calibration. You no longer need all that (costly) crap under the hood like the old servo/vacuum systems, because now the cruise control motions are controlled by software.
Regarding reliability, there are redundant systems built into the electronics. The actual pedal motion is the only variable that doesn't have a redundant feature to check for "correctness", as it were.
 
Olde ET here from the vacuum tube daze yet, I can guaranfreekingTEE you that issue is electronic in nature, probable cause is bad grounding or grounding of a nature that the RIGHT/RONG EMI/RFI pulse hits that vehicle under the rong circumstances, and the computer goes nutz.....

which is why 'fly by wire' will never bee on any car I own....stupid idea anyway...freeking slip cable worth 5 bux, vs servos worth 25, which one is cheeper and more reliable???

:trumpet::flash::bonkers:

Generally the FBW (fly by wire) system is more profitable for the automaker, along with helping to reduce vehicle weight. You have to remember that most cars have cruise control, also. With FBW all it takes to put cruise control in the vehicle is the cheap switch on the turn signal lever, and a bit change in the solftware calibration. You no longer need all that (costly) crap under the hood like the old servo/vacuum systems, because now the cruise control motions are controlled by software.
Regarding reliability, there are redundant systems built into the electronics. The actual pedal motion is the only variable that doesn't have a redundant feature to check for "correctness", as it were.

Correct, obviously, BUT, you get the rong damn buzzy in the servo loooooop and you got a run away engine....the vac control servos have a vac switch on the brake pedal to eliminate that....tap the pedal and by by goes the suction off the cruise, case closed....as I say....:D

I wired the cruise in my '72 without that direct vac interrupt feature, I forget the exact hookup, but when that brake is pressed the cruise is disconnected at the power source....case closed....
 
Olde ET here from the vacuum tube daze yet, I can guaranfreekingTEE you that issue is electronic in nature, probable cause is bad grounding or grounding of a nature that the RIGHT/RONG EMI/RFI pulse hits that vehicle under the rong circumstances, and the computer goes nutz.....

which is why 'fly by wire' will never bee on any car I own....stupid idea anyway...freeking slip cable worth 5 bux, vs servos worth 25, which one is cheeper and more reliable???

:trumpet::flash::bonkers:

Generally the FBW (fly by wire) system is more profitable for the automaker, along with helping to reduce vehicle weight. You have to remember that most cars have cruise control, also. With FBW all it takes to put cruise control in the vehicle is the cheap switch on the turn signal lever, and a bit change in the solftware calibration. You no longer need all that (costly) crap under the hood like the old servo/vacuum systems, because now the cruise control motions are controlled by software.
Regarding reliability, there are redundant systems built into the electronics. The actual pedal motion is the only variable that doesn't have a redundant feature to check for "correctness", as it were.

Correct, obviously, BUT, you get the rong damn buzzy in the servo loooooop and you got a run away engine....the vac control servos have a vac switch on the brake pedal to eliminate that....tap the pedal and by by goes the suction off the cruise, case closed....as I say....:D

I wired the cruise in my '72 without that direct vac interrupt feature, I forget the exact hookup, but when that brake is pressed the cruise is disconnected at the power source....case closed....

Gene, I used to design PCMs with FBW. I went through a lot of work to design RFI/EMI filters on all the I/O to prevent the sort of issue you're talking about. In addition, the throttle body setups are designed so that when you remove the drive current to the positioning motor, an internal spring closes the throttle blades (some close to about 10% throttle position so that you can still idle down the road to a safe location). I can't speak for other designers, but I've spent a ton of time in (well actually, just outside) EMC chambers beaming every frequency known to man trying to get the vehicles to screw up. From the limited info I have, it appears to be a mechanical issue, not electrical, that bit Toyota in the ass.
 
Olde ET here from the vacuum tube daze yet, I can guaranfreekingTEE you that issue is electronic in nature, probable cause is bad grounding or grounding of a nature that the RIGHT/RONG EMI/RFI pulse hits that vehicle under the rong circumstances, and the computer goes nutz.....

which is why 'fly by wire' will never bee on any car I own....stupid idea anyway...freeking slip cable worth 5 bux, vs servos worth 25, which one is cheeper and more reliable???

:trumpet::flash::bonkers:

Generally the FBW (fly by wire) system is more profitable for the automaker, along with helping to reduce vehicle weight. You have to remember that most cars have cruise control, also. With FBW all it takes to put cruise control in the vehicle is the cheap switch on the turn signal lever, and a bit change in the solftware calibration. You no longer need all that (costly) crap under the hood like the old servo/vacuum systems, because now the cruise control motions are controlled by software.
Regarding reliability, there are redundant systems built into the electronics. The actual pedal motion is the only variable that doesn't have a redundant feature to check for "correctness", as it were.

Correct, obviously, BUT, you get the rong damn buzzy in the servo loooooop and you got a run away engine....the vac control servos have a vac switch on the brake pedal to eliminate that....tap the pedal and by by goes the suction off the cruise, case closed....as I say....:D

I wired the cruise in my '72 without that direct vac interrupt feature, I forget the exact hookup, but when that brake is pressed the cruise is disconnected at the power source....case closed....

Gene, I used to design PCMs with FBW. I went through a lot of work to design RFI/EMI filters on all the I/O to prevent the sort of issue you're talking about. In addition, the throttle body setups are designed so that when you remove the drive current to the positioning motor, an internal spring closes the throttle blades (some close to about 10% throttle position so that you can still idle down the road to a safe location). I can't speak for other designers, but I've spent a ton of time in (well actually, just outside) EMC chambers beaming every frequency known to man trying to get the vehicles to screw up. From the limited info I have, it appears to be a mechanical issue, not electrical, that bit Toyota in the ass.

Mike, I hear you man, BUT what about wiring problems?? bad crimps/grounds/routing?? and then a blurb on TV news this even where some woman has a Camry that has accelerated like 7 TIMES, by itself....she has wrecked it several of those times and now refuses to drive it...
Sorry, but I think it's possible to get a ground loop type thing going, a 1/2 assed defect that can drive any system crazy.....I seen my share of that from my TV shop daze, even back when...some of them symptoms made NO sense and still don't...and I stick with stats, you make enough of something often enough, and sooner or later, numbers catch up...off the wall defects happen, I still think from that blurb on the pedals, i'ts the rong conclusion...

I guess we will see...even with those metal detectors in airports and wherever needed, the nature of various faults was crazy.....

and I know Jim/Turtlevette gives me shit over this....but that includes a ungrounded NUCLEAR power plant....Duke Power in middle of Carolina ....
guaranfreeking TEED, I will never forget THAT phone call.....

:rain::suicide:
 
There was some mention of condensation causing the problem with the accelerator.

Translation - Don't drive your Toyota with wet shoes? :zzz:

A wet "sending unit" for lack of a better description could send a full throttle signal to the engine? I thought all of that stuff was encased in epoxy.... non serviceable like.
 
I'm not familiar with the nitty-gritty details of the Toyota system, but the ones I worked on had redundant pedal position sensors (so that if a fault occurred and the two sensors did not agree, the software knew there was a problem, and shut things down), along with dual TPS sensors to keep track of the throttle blade position. In addition, the PCM had to both source and sink the throttle motor current (in a PWM mode) so that a wiring harness electrical short could not lock the motor open. Regardless if the throttle motor harness short was to battery or to ground, the PCM could still interrupt the current loop, shutting down the motor.
As I said before, the mechanical position of the pedal is the only thing that doesn't have anything to doublecheck its intended position.
 
Anything electrical or mechanical can fail at any time for any reason. Toyo has probably been making a big attempt at hiding the problem and was sucessfull until the media heard about it, causing that machine to get into hyperdrive, causing the NHTSB to get into it too. And then ALL the problems with that system came to light and Toyo is in up to their little eyeballs.
Then some clown in the Obama administration made a comment and it was "Sorry, I misspoke" .

The Boeing rudder thing was the servo valves in the rudder PCU (power control unit) not liking the hot hydraulic fluid and cold valves. At cruise speed, rudder travel is pretty much locked out to anything over 3* either side of neutral. As it slows down, the rudder travel comes back and that's where the problem was. Hot fluid hit the cold servos and the valves might stay where they are or go full travel. FAA issued an airworthiness directive and they changed all the PCU and servos.

Almost forgot-- Dad had a 63 Olds- old time all mechanical linkage throttle and cruise- he hit the cruise "on" button one afternoon and that thing jerked the throttle to WFO- no delay. That TH400 dropped into 2nd gear and it was 100 MPH before he could get it switched off.
 
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