Chemists.....

[mrvette]

What is the diff between....

Denatured alky and ethanol???

How much difference is there between REAL undiluted gasoline, and say what??

Toluene, Mineral spirits, acetone, MEK, ???


where I am going is to mix alky with one of the other gasoline/oil related components, and let it set in a closed container for a week and watch the action.....

I smell a fish on this blended gas crap....

:bomb::smash:

 

[vette]

What is the diff between....

Denatured alky and ethanol???

How much difference is there between REAL undiluted gasoline, and say what??

Toluene, Mineral spirits, acetone, MEK, ???


where I am going is to mix alky with one of the other gasoline/oil related components, and let it set in a closed container for a week and watch the action.....

I smell a fish on this blended gas crap....

:bomb::smash:

Wow! I thought you were mixing new paint compounds again. LOL That would put a shine for sure on the car.

Danny

 

[mrvette]

What is the diff between....

Denatured alky and ethanol???

How much difference is there between REAL undiluted gasoline, and say what??

Toluene, Mineral spirits, acetone, MEK, ???


where I am going is to mix alky with one of the other gasoline/oil related components, and let it set in a closed container for a week and watch the action.....

I smell a fish on this blended gas crap....

:bomb::smash:

Wow! I thought you were mixing new paint compounds again. LOL That would put a shine for sure on the car.

Danny

Car and me lost our shine long ago....a mere fucksmiley of my former self....:crap::bounce:

 

[73 Mike]

What is the diff between....

Denatured alky and ethanol???

How much difference is there between REAL undiluted gasoline, and say what??

Toluene, Mineral spirits, acetone, MEK, ???


where I am going is to mix alky with one of the other gasoline/oil related components, and let it set in a closed container for a week and watch the action.....

I smell a fish on this blended gas crap....

:bomb::smash:

My CHEM 101 lesson for the day. I trust your tuition check is in the mail?

The term "denatured" essentially means adulterated. They add an ingredient to ethanol to make it undrinkable. Most of the compounds used are very bitter but not particularly harmful. One of the most popular goes by the trade name Bitrex. One notable exception is methanol which doesn't taste very good, but can be consumed. It is pretty harmful.

As for all of your other questions, they are all chemically different, though all hydrocarbons of one sort or another. Each chemical will have its own set of properties including how it burns and how it smells. Your fish smell observation likely means that they have added or have a contaminant with a sulfur content.

Class dismissed.

 

[vette]

Wait a minute, you want to drink this stuff? Let me know how that works out for ya. I'm from the late sixties, I'm game :drink:

 

[mrvette]

What I am curious to observe is just what can I buy over the shelf that is most similar to what WAS ordinary gasoline...pre ethanol daze.....

then to pour as similar a chem I can buy to ethanol...I presume denatured alky....

so to mix them pretty good, and set a quart off to the side with a sealed up top on it...

and see what happens after say 2-3 weeks.....

but I need a FAIR comparison so to name a gallon of X and Y that are most similar....that's all....

I want to know what is happening in this gas tank as to why the engine runs to inconsistently BAD at idle....there has to be a REASON,

maybe too much time on my hands,...whatEVER, I want a answer, damnit...

obviously no one else can spend as much time with the car as I can, much less PAY someone.....so

I have to get into chemistry as it's my only other path....I have to solve mysteries like this shit....part of my nature....

:hissyfit::friends:

 

[Beagle 1]

Race gas or av gas?

What I am curious to observe is just what can I buy over the shelf that is most similar to what WAS ordinary gasoline...pre ethanol daze.....

then to pour as similar a chem I can buy to ethanol...I presume denatured alky....

so to mix them pretty good, and set a quart off to the side with a sealed up top on it...

and see what happens after say 2-3 weeks.....

but I need a FAIR comparison so to name a gallon of X and Y that are most similar....that's all....

I want to know what is happening in this gas tank as to why the engine runs to inconsistently BAD at idle....there has to be a REASON,

maybe too much time on my hands,...whatEVER, I want a answer, damnit...

obviously no one else can spend as much time with the car as I can, much less PAY someone.....so

I have to get into chemistry as it's my only other path....I have to solve mysteries like this shit....part of my nature....

:hissyfit::friends:

 

[mrvette]

Race gas or av gas?

What I am curious to observe is just what can I buy over the shelf that is most similar to what WAS ordinary gasoline...pre ethanol daze.....

then to pour as similar a chem I can buy to ethanol...I presume denatured alky....

so to mix them pretty good, and set a quart off to the side with a sealed up top on it...

and see what happens after say 2-3 weeks.....

but I need a FAIR comparison so to name a gallon of X and Y that are most similar....that's all....

I want to know what is happening in this gas tank as to why the engine runs to inconsistently BAD at idle....there has to be a REASON,

maybe too much time on my hands,...whatEVER, I want a answer, damnit...

obviously no one else can spend as much time with the car as I can, much less PAY someone.....so

I have to get into chemistry as it's my only other path....I have to solve mysteries like this shit....part of my nature....

:hissyfit::friends:

NO, that would be olde tyme leaded gas, like I wish we could still get,

I fought a crazy problem that almost a year ago I found the water/gas in bottom of my tank, when it was cleaned out, the car ran much better, then I changed injectors, ran GREAT, but it's been maybe 6? tanks of gas since then, and it's getting back to the same crappy idle I suffered, not as bad, but still shakes....so the problem is returning, since in the past, adding Techron helped a lot, it lead me to fuel related .....I never suspected that much dead water/fuel in the tank bottom, so the issue is where is it coming from, and how to cure the problem.....IF it's due to my suspicions about this ethanol crap at 10% in modern gasolines here, there is nothing to be done about it, unless some sort of filter, marine type gas/water separator, whatever....

so before going nutz changing a bunch of crap around, I thought to pull a little test of my own, see what happens when mixing my own alky/gas cocktail, and see if it separates out.....6 tanks of gas in the last maybe 4 months is not a lot of use, it's a DD, but not like I was doing 20 miles to work and back every day....

tank is kind of lo now, maybe to drain it totally and then do like last time just to see what is what....

:hissyfit:

 

[vette]

Race gas or av gas?

What I am curious to observe is just what can I buy over the shelf that is most similar to what WAS ordinary gasoline...pre ethanol daze.....

then to pour as similar a chem I can buy to ethanol...I presume denatured alky....

so to mix them pretty good, and set a quart off to the side with a sealed up top on it...

and see what happens after say 2-3 weeks.....

but I need a FAIR comparison so to name a gallon of X and Y that are most similar....that's all....

I want to know what is happening in this gas tank as to why the engine runs to inconsistently BAD at idle....there has to be a REASON,

maybe too much time on my hands,...whatEVER, I want a answer, damnit...

obviously no one else can spend as much time with the car as I can, much less PAY someone.....so

I have to get into chemistry as it's my only other path....I have to solve mysteries like this shit....part of my nature....

:hissyfit::friends:

NO, that would be olde tyme leaded gas, like I wish we could still get,

I fought a crazy problem that almost a year ago I found the water/gas in bottom of my tank, when it was cleaned out, the car ran much better, then I changed injectors, ran GREAT, but it's been maybe 6? tanks of gas since then, and it's getting back to the same crappy idle I suffered, not as bad, but still shakes....so the problem is returning, since in the past, adding Techron helped a lot, it lead me to fuel related .....I never suspected that much dead water/fuel in the tank bottom, so the issue is where is it coming from, and how to cure the problem.....IF it's due to my suspicions about this ethanol crap at 10% in modern gasolines here, there is nothing to be done about it, unless some sort of filter, marine type gas/water separator, whatever....

so before going nutz changing a bunch of crap around, I thought to pull a little test of my own, see what happens when mixing my own alky/gas cocktail, and see if it separates out.....6 tanks of gas in the last maybe 4 months is not a lot of use, it's a DD, but not like I was doing 20 miles to work and back every day....

tank is kind of lo now, maybe to drain it totally and then do like last time just to see what is what....

:hissyfit:

Why don't you take some gas out of your tank and put it in your lawn mower and let it sit to see what happens.

Danny

 

[big2bird]

Gene,
Just put a sample of the crap your buying in a jar right from the pump. :huh:

 

[mrvette]

Gene,
Just put a sample of the crap your buying in a jar right from the pump. :huh:

Yeh, that too, I just dunno what to expect though....

I tempted to drain tank today and see what's in the bottom too.....:ill::gurney:

 

[73 Mike]

Gene,

I think I finally get your question. Essentially, you want to make "old" style gasoline without any of the additives correct? Then you want to have one with say 5 % ethanol for comparison. Do I have this right?

First of all, I think you're going to find it close to imposible to recreate gasoline from off the shelf components. Gasoline is nothing be a cut of distilates from a refinery. It is fairly volatile and a mixture to which they put in various aditives to prevent smog, resin deposits and other things. I'm sure yuo could find analyses on line somewhere and you could probably come close by mixing the right proportions of the largest components.

As for the ethanol, don't worry about finding denatured ethanol. WHen they add it to gasoline they would render it undrinkable so probably wouldn't bother denaturing it first. That would depend more on regs than the refineries.

One complication that you're going to come accross is that ethanol is hygroscopic. Usually the best you can buy without going to reagent grade is 95% alcohol with 5% water. Rubbing alcohol is 70% water. In other words, you're going to add a fair fit of water to your mix that the refinery wouldn't. Ethanol does a fairly good job at keeping the water dissolved in the gasoline but at some point you'd exceed the solubility and would end up clouding the gasoline.

Am I getting closer to answering your question?

 

[mrvette]

Gene,

I think I finally get your question. Essentially, you want to make "old" style gasoline without any of the additives correct? Then you want to have one with say 5 % ethanol for comparison. Do I have this right?

First of all, I think you're going to find it close to imposible to recreate gasoline from off the shelf components. Gasoline is nothing be a cut of distilates from a refinery. It is fairly volatile and a mixture to which they put in various aditives to prevent smog, resin deposits and other things. I'm sure yuo could find analyses on line somewhere and you could probably come close by mixing the right proportions of the largest components.

As for the ethanol, don't worry about finding denatured ethanol. WHen they add it to gasoline they would render it undrinkable so probably wouldn't bother denaturing it first. That would depend more on regs than the refineries.

One complication that you're going to come accross is that ethanol is hygroscopic. Usually the best you can buy without going to reagent grade is 95% alcohol with 5% water. Rubbing alcohol is 70% water. In other words, you're going to add a fair fit of water to your mix that the refinery wouldn't. Ethanol does a fairly good job at keeping the water dissolved in the gasoline but at some point you'd exceed the solubility and would end up clouding the gasoline.

Am I getting closer to answering your question?

YES< you ARE!!....hard to describe where my mind is at when I dunno any tech terms too well, that and then to be scared of misusing one and making it even worse....

so what you say above, tell me that in fact, the ethanol in the gasoline could very well absorb extra water than it left the refinery with....from underground station tanks....we have super high ground water here as I have mentioned....so water incursion could well be a problem, still unsure how a concrete/gunnite pool can float outta the ground, but a empty underground gas tank doesn't.....so they obviously don't, but that means there is still a lot of ground water pressure on the tanks.....so water WILL win as any contractor knows, just a matter of time....



so the ultimate question is how much water can the ethanol be expected to absorb while setting in a underground tank?? 50%....more?? less??

I have to assume at this point some cars are less tolerant of water in the fuel, even if mixed with ethanol....my vette being one of them, OR, I"m too picky....which other guys don't think so, there is a problem...

:gurney:

 

[Dirtbuster1]

What I am curious to observe is just what can I buy over the shelf that is most similar to what WAS ordinary gasoline...pre ethanol daze.....

then to pour as similar a chem I can buy to ethanol...I presume denatured alky....

so to mix them pretty good, and set a quart off to the side with a sealed up top on it...

and see what happens after say 2-3 weeks.....

but I need a FAIR comparison so to name a gallon of X and Y that are most similar....that's all....

I want to know what is happening in this gas tank as to why the engine runs to inconsistently BAD at idle....there has to be a REASON,

maybe too much time on my hands,...whatEVER, I want a answer, damnit...

obviously no one else can spend as much time with the car as I can, much less PAY someone.....so

I have to get into chemistry as it's my only other path....I have to solve mysteries like this shit....part of my nature....

:hissyfit::friends:

Gene,

I agree that you have way to much time on your hands. ( Just joking ) I also think that maybe you have sniffed way too many chemicals while painting the car.

Oh well, what is one to do! The retired life does get bring at times.

 

[73 Mike]

so what you say above, tell me that in fact, the ethanol in the gasoline could very well absorb extra water than it left the refinery with....from underground station tanks....we have super high ground water here as I have mentioned....so water incursion could well be a problem, still unsure how a concrete/gunnite pool can float outta the ground, but a empty underground gas tank doesn't.....so they obviously don't, but that means there is still a lot of ground water pressure on the tanks.....so water WILL win as any contractor knows, just a matter of time....


:gurney:

A whole bunch of different ideas here.

First, the properties of an individual chemical like ethanol will be affected by the components that it's mixed with. I would think that ethanol would be LESS hygroscopic when mixed with gasoline but I don't know. Methyl hydrate is used up north as both a fuel antifreeze and to absorb water from condensation/contamination in the fuel system. Supposed to be very effective for this. I'd assume ethanol is cheeper so the fact that it isn't used leads me to believe that it doesn't work as well for this purpose.

Second, water around a storage tank SHOULDN'T enter the material stored in the tank. If it does, there has to be a leak. The tank material wouldn't be permeable. It also means that fuel would be leaking out which is bad. Very bad here in CA as gas is a carcinogen here. As near as I can tell, it's safe everywhere else

As for tanks being lifted by the high water table, you're kind of talking about buoyancy. I think your analogy that all tanks/pools/oil will rise over time is exactly right. The rate at which it rises would depend on the buoyancy force and the "friction" (probably not the correct term) of the material around it. It would be kind of like creep which is calculated by load over time. I would guess that the buoyancy force for a gasoline tank would be fairly similar to that of an empty swimming pool but would guess that the fuel tank would have a better foundation of material around it t keep it from rising. That's a guess though.