Fueling issue.

69427

The Artist formerly known as Turbo84
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
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Clinging to my guns and religion in KCMO.
Hauled the '69 up to Indiana and Michigan for some autocross and track time a couple weeks ago. The autocross was a get together with some old friends where I used to live in Indiana, and also a good opportunity to put a decent load on the engine to get the rings seated. The car and engine ran well, with no problems, so I was relieved to finish the event with all the parts in the same place (and condition) as when I got there.
Later in the week a few of us went up to Gingerman Raceway in Michigan for a test and tune session. I got there earlier than the rest of the gang, and installed my WBO2 sensor in the tailpipe to check what the carb was doing out on the track.

IM001502.jpg

The engines that I've had this carb (Holley 3310 780CFM) on have always run well, with good throttle response, so I didn't expect to see that the A/F ratio was very far off.
The car ran great out on the track, with the A/F ratio looking just a touch rich (11.9) at WOT. No big deal. I could tweak it down the road when I got caught up with other things.
About 15 minutes into the first session things changed. I came into one of the corners as usual, braked hard, and then hit the throttle coming out. Instead of some smooth acceleration all I got was a burbling noise out of the exhaust as I applied the throttle. Scared the crap out of me, and I lifted out of the throttle. The engine smoothed right out when I did that, so I figured I didn't grenade anything, so I gave it a little more throttle to try to figure out what happened. As soon as I gave it more than about 10-15% throttle it would fall on its face again, and the WBO2 readout would climb higher the more throttle I gave it. At 20-25% throttle the O2 readout would climb to 20-22 A/F ratio. I nursed it a couple miles around the rest of the track and into the pits. The engine would idle fine there in the pits, but go lean when I applied any throttle.
So, I'm back home now and am going to try to figure out what happened. My first thought is that a piece of crap somehow got in and plugged one of the main jets. This would lean it out under load. A plugged filter would starve things, but it shouldn't have been able to plug so quickly. I checked the bowl fuel level and it was where it was supposed to be, so fuel is getting to the carb, I just haven't checked the level as the engine is being revved to see if the pump is keeping up.
So, that's where I'm at. The car is still in the trailer and I'm hoping it will run well enough to get up the driveway and also up on the car lift into the garage.
Am I missing anything here? Input is welcome here.
 
It sounds like you already know what you need to do. I am wondering about the pump also. Something clogging the set is possible, but I think maybe a longshot. What happens when you slowly bring the revs up sitting still. Don't go overboard sitting there, but without out a load on it does everything seem to be ok.
Justin
 
It sounds like you already know what you need to do. I am wondering about the pump also. Something clogging the set is possible, but I think maybe a longshot. What happens when you slowly bring the revs up sitting still. Don't go overboard sitting there, but without out a load on it does everything seem to be ok.
Justin

After I got back to the pits I slowly revved the engine in neutral, and it did a similar lean-out according to the WBO2 readout. I was surprised that it did that given the minimal load just sitting there.
 
Well, WTF??? I started the car up and drove it into the garage, and it ran like a top. I gave it some increasing throttle and watched the O2 meter, and it got progressively richer as the throttle opened. I realize this is a light load test, but it crapped out doing the same test at the track in Michigan. Perhaps all the potholes I hit on the interstates on the way home jarred something loose in the carb.
I've got a spare 850 DP sitting on the shelf. Perhaps I'll freshen that up and keep as a track spare in case this issue pops up again. Once I get caught up with a couple other things I was going to pull the front half of the 780 apart and see if I see anything obviously wrong anyway.
If nothing else I'll have two carbs available as I've always been curious if there's much difference in performance between the two. I love the throttle response out of the corners with the 780, but theoretically the 850 ought to give me a bit more pull down the straights.
 
Mine's EFI but a filter is still a filter. I was on the way up to the Eureka Springs Arkansas weekend on Thurs. Car was running super. Got about 80 miles out of town and lost all power and started backfiring through intake plenum. Fuel pressure was all over the board. It would almost run smoothly at about 50-60 MPH with a little bucking, but would die at lower speeds. Changed the secondary filter right in front of the fuel rails and all was good for the rest of the trip. It happened just that fast. Art
 
Fuel filter and water in the gas tank.....

pump also......

are the wires to hour HEI coil soldered??

:crutches::crap::friends:
 
Don't blindly trust the lambda readings, lean doesn't necessarily mean lean. It may be misfire and it doesn't take a lot to upset the sensor. It may also be a small exhaust leak upstream of the sensor, these things are very sensitive.

depending on cam overlap you may see a lean indication at idle or low throttle settings as a result of it.
 
That may be the issue also, I have been through about half a dozen of them before I finally gave up on Innovate. Everytime I cruised around it would work flawless, then when the loud pedal went down nothing.
I switched to the NGK AFX with the updated NGK meter and it has worked flawless. Obviously you can feel if the motor has an issue which you indicated, but don't completely believe the numbers you are seeing on the meter. Also how ofter are you calibrating it.
Back to the issue, you could have picked up a piece of trash in the bowl, have you removed it just to check it.
 
That may be the issue also, I have been through about half a dozen of them before I finally gave up on Innovate. Everytime I cruised around it would work flawless, then when the loud pedal went down nothing.
I switched to the NGK AFX with the updated NGK meter and it has worked flawless. Obviously you can feel if the motor has an issue which you indicated, but don't completely believe the numbers you are seeing on the meter. Also how ofter are you calibrating it.
Back to the issue, you could have picked up a piece of trash in the bowl, have you removed it just to check it.


Umm...that comment makes me recall my muffler/piped man comment that the O2 sensors have to be at least on a upward incline on the side, never down....or up vertical most as possible.....due to clogging/malfunction issues with the crystal....

:hissyfit::shocking:
 
Don't blindly trust the lambda readings, lean doesn't necessarily mean lean. It may be misfire and it doesn't take a lot to upset the sensor. It may also be a small exhaust leak upstream of the sensor, these things are very sensitive.

depending on cam overlap you may see a lean indication at idle or low throttle settings as a result of it.

I understand. However, the readings changed at exactly the same time that the power/drivability changed. I don't believe it was a misfire, as it had the classic leanout feel when I tried to accelerate out of the corner. Losing a single cylinder would obviously change the readout value, but I would have had to lose several cylinders to get as soggy of acceleration as I experienced.
 
vapor lock? Track time is a lot different then short bursts on the street.
 
vapor lock? Track time is a lot different then short bursts on the street.

The fuel in the tank was probably 75*, the engine was only 200*, I have a plastic insulator spacer under the carb, and I was going at a good clip for 15 solid minutes. I can't believe the fuel would have had a sufficient opportunity to heat up given how quickly fuel goes through that thing when I'm having fun. I've got at least 500 miles of track time in that car at that particular track, and the one thing I never worried about was the engine. I've lost brakes, tires, and I'm embarassed to say two transmissions (okay, same transmission, just broke it twice), but never had an engine issue.

And I guess if it was vapor lock or fuel quality issues I would have expected the idle quality to take a shit, but it idled just fine in the pits, but only roughened up when I tried to feed it more throttle.
 

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