Grand Am rack and pinion tie rod opinions

Sam Cogley

Sam Cogley

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
558
Location
Springfield, MO
From the well-built installations I've been reading about, there are two options for the tie rods:
1) use a pair of Grand Am right-hand rods, retaining nothing of the original setup.
2) retain the outer tie rod ends, fabricate a longer center bracket for the rack, then use heim joints for the inner connections.

It seems that bump steer is a minimal issue with either setup. #1 has some attraction in that the parts are standard and rather late-model - if something were to break on a road trip, they would be easy to replace. #2 has some attraction in that I have almost-new VB&P HD tie rods with Moog ends in the car.

From a technical standpoint, which version is superior?

Also, does anyone know what size and type the input and output fittings are on the rack? I'll make up an Aeroquip stainless line to run from the high-pressure output of the Hydroboost unit to the rack input, but I'm not sure what the fitting is. Likewise, if I know what the output fitting is I can get a hose barb fitting for the rubber return line.
 
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About a decade ago, I had engine out and car was undergoing a HUGE overhaul that knocked it off the road for 6 months or so....door/hood/engine/tranny/interior, ALL of it outta there, did not pull body/frame though, the car is solid i that rust dept....that is when I did the rack install, fishing through several racks from parts houses to junk yards and finally knowing the rack that European fellow Idar Anderson did with his rack install....

so the car was on the stands, and so to orient the rack to something useable, having measured from the engine to frame, I knew the measures pretty good...
but had to bend the rack transverse lines down a bit, and dent the forward end of the engine oil pan for further clearance on the bellows....

so yes, mine is tighter than a castle door..... the rack was supported on whatever jack stands/jigs I had on hand at the time to do the initial mock up...took two variations to get it right, then another modification on top of that....

Keep in mind, my car is a street machine, driven quickly, but not raced, so my use is a bit softer than some guys....but after a decade of use....

it's still there with NO issues...

:clobbered::goodevil:
 
Does the Grand Am tie rod taper fit the C3 control arm? By "fit", I actually mean that the tapers are the same. Late model SAE metric is usually different taper.
 
BBShark said:
Does the Grand Am tie rod taper fit the C3 control arm? By "fit", I actually mean that the tapers are the same. Late model SAE metric is usually different taper.
Click to expand...

NO it does not, so my problem was to use the stock trusted true tie rod ends on every car for billions of miles....OR go to some trick racing product with OPEN heim joints and no grease fittings....

MY choice was stock tie rod ends on each end....since they were new, and OEM trusted design from MOOG at the time, why mess with success??

so I chopped the tie rod collars and extended them with a 9/16 steel rod in the center, cross drilled and welded, then sleeved on the outside, grenade proof...heavy, yes....:hunter:

I have stock tie rod ends on both ends having a machine shop make a adapter for stock tie rods to the rack output....
 
BBShark said:
Does the Grand Am tie rod taper fit the C3 control arm? By "fit", I actually mean that the tapers are the same. Late model SAE metric is usually different taper.
Click to expand...

I would imagine that there should be something with the right taper for the steering knuckle and the right threads for the tie rod. Worst case, I drive the guys at the parts store nuts trying to find something.
 
Somewhere around I have a taper cutting tool for the stock tie rod taper. Bought it when doing my Jeep Box install, the Chevelle Pitman arm needed to be re-tapered. I could make solid ends and use the stock tie rods, no Heim joints, if I can get the geometry right.

Does the C4 knuckle use the same taper as the C3? I think the C4 tie rod ends have the same thread as the Grand Am parts. I now have a pair of Grand Am passenger side tie rods, so I can go either way with the project.
 
Sam Cogley said:
Somewhere around I have a taper cutting tool for the stock tie rod taper. Bought it when doing my Jeep Box install, the Chevelle Pitman arm needed to be re-tapered. I could make solid ends and use the stock tie rods, no Heim joints, if I can get the geometry right.
Click to expand...
???? You retapered (reamed) a Chevelle pitman arm with a modern taper (like the Grand Am tie rods)? The tapers are close enough for a bubba job but why not use the Chevelle arm as is?

Sam Cogley said:
Does the C4 knuckle use the same taper as the C3? I think the C4 tie rod ends have the same thread as the Grand Am parts. I now have a pair of Grand Am passenger side tie rods, so I can go either way with the project.
Click to expand...
Once again, C4 knuckles and C3 do not have the same taper. When cars were converted to SAE metric, the taper changed.
 
metric taper is usually 1:50 (1mm increase in diameter over 50mm length)

For my Grand Am rack conversion I am planning on using the stock C3 tie rod ends, threaded tubing and then heim joints instead of the inner tie rod ends... should work out fine.... hopefully....
 
BBShark said:
Sam Cogley said:
Somewhere around I have a taper cutting tool for the stock tie rod taper. Bought it when doing my Jeep Box install, the Chevelle Pitman arm needed to be re-tapered. I could make solid ends and use the stock tie rods, no Heim joints, if I can get the geometry right.
Click to expand...
???? You retapered (reamed) a Chevelle pitman arm with a modern taper (like the Grand Am tie rods)? The tapers are close enough for a bubba job but why not use the Chevelle arm as is?
Click to expand...

Nope, I recut it with the old SAE taper. Got lucky and found a good deal on the right tool from a shop that does off-road/Jeep stuff. The hole in my Chevelle arm was too small to get the Corvette drag link to seat properly.

Sam Cogley said:
Does the C4 knuckle use the same taper as the C3? I think the C4 tie rod ends have the same thread as the Grand Am parts. I now have a pair of Grand Am passenger side tie rods, so I can go either way with the project.
Click to expand...
Once again, C4 knuckles and C3 do not have the same taper. When cars were converted to SAE metric, the taper changed.
Click to expand...

Ugh. I was afraid of that. Didn't know when the change occurred, 'tis why I asked.
 
Sam Cogley said:
Also, does anyone know what size and type the input and output fittings are on the rack? I'll make up an Aeroquip stainless line to run from the high-pressure output of the Hydroboost unit to the rack input, but I'm not sure what the fitting is. Likewise, if I know what the output fitting is I can get a hose barb fitting for the rubber return line.
Click to expand...

18x1.5mm in
16x1.5mm out

For the attatchment type, its just states O-ring. I have some AN fittings on mine... Ill pull one out next time Im under there if you want, but if I recall its just a standard power steering type fitting
 
stock taper is 1.5" over a foot if I remember correctly.

Could I borrow or maybe buy that reamer you have? I still need one, I have never found anyone selling a correct reamer. I have some custom pieces that need reaming.
 
Marck, the HSS reamers are junk. The only way to get them to work is super slow feeds and speeds flooded with oil. The good ones are carbide and I haven't seen one for less than $500. The HHS are OK for cleaning up hole but that's about it.

If you just want a hand reamer to clean up holes for balljoints, there is a tapered hand reamer that electrical guys use for making holes in electrical boxes. They are pretty cheap but are really only good for cleanup.

Maybe Jeff knows what I'm talking about.
 
All I know is, there is ONE machine shop in the industrial city of Jax Fl. that had the proper taper reamer on hand to make my adapter block to fit the stock tie rod ends to the rack....I used stock ends on both tips of the tie rods, figgered it better that way...one of the guys, surely here, helped me a LOT by advising to raise the tie rods on that output block, so I cut and had my buddy weld the block to proper position, bump steer was the issue, it maybe not perfect like RVR or TV maybe want, but good enough for a decent street machine...

:thumbs: them damn taper reamers not used much, seems to be a very uncommon tool.....
 
Unfortunately, my reamer is not carbide. Don't remember where I bought it. It's a bit of a PITA to use, but it gets the job done. Slowly.

427, thanks for the fitting info!
 
Larry, I wasn't prepared to pay 500 for a reamer, in which case I will do away with the tapers alltogether and use 5/8 unf with a locking nut on the back like on my appleton rack.
 
If the taper is more than 1:50 then consider step drilling before using the reamer. It also depends how deep the hole is - the reamer is only designed for removing small amounts of material, slow speed and lots of cutting oil is the way to go, then even HSS lasts a while ...
 
I had a new idea recently, I still need to measure the GA tie rods to see if it will work: cut the GA tie rods down and have them threaded to match the inner threads of the VB&P tie rod tubes. Best of both worlds.
 
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Sam Cogley said:
I had a new idea recently, I still need to measure the GA tie rods to see if it will work: cut the GA tie rods down and have them threaded to match the inner threads of the VB&P tie rod tubes. Best of both worlds.
Click to expand...

Sam, I don't think that going to work, seems that the angle needed for use is too much for the GA tie rod ends at the rack, the position we need is too far back? maybe too high? angled rong, at least mine was, but I have my rack tilted with the input universal needing clearanced to the lower rear of the engine mount, so I cut out a crescent and used only two input universals...I had to get the universal up in the air in order to relax the angle on the univ/ at the steering column, it was binding....

:shocking:
 
The installs I've seen using the GA tie rods use an angled bracket bolted to the stock tie rod points to get the geometry right. Our steering system mounts the rack a lot lower than it was in the GA.
 
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