Mini starter again

[GT6Steve]

Hi guys,

I've got the nasty 81 back on the road now and it's mostly a good thing. It's not so nasty anymore and seems to be getting a lot of looks and some thumbs up. It's running great until we start getting heat soak at long stop lights cuz then the idle gets rough. But that's not the scary one....

I seem to be getting heat soak into the starter as it will just barely turn then crank slowly and fire up. Battery seems good.

So I did a search and spent the last few hours reading the threads on ministarters. And now I'm more confused than before? How do I know how many teeth on my flywheel short of counting them?

If and when I do get the correct one do I have to shim or adjust it? If so, how do I do that?

There are mentions of a late model factory starter and the efforts to get the right bolt combination. Using GM parts seems the smart way forward to me, any opinions there?

I am so glad to have this skittish POS back. Now I need it to start reliably and we can move forward on the other niggles...:drink::drink:

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

168 - the other tooth one is from like early 60s/late 50s V8s....

As was reinforced to me (again), make sure your ground connections are as good as your positive connections. When you start the car, if one terminal gets hot and the other doesn't - the cold side doesn't have a good connection.

 

[Kid Vette]

Look at your starter bolts. If they're in line you have a 153 tooth flywheel, if they are staggered you have a 168 tooth flywheel.

 

[mrvette]

168 - the other tooth one is from like early 60s/late 50s V8s....

As was reinforced to me (again), make sure your ground connections are as good as your positive connections. When you start the car, if one terminal gets hot and the other doesn't - the HOT side doesn't have a good connection.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

168 - the other tooth one is from like early 60s/late 50s V8s....

As was reinforced to me (again), make sure your ground connections are as good as your positive connections. When you start the car, if one terminal gets hot and the other doesn't - the HOT side doesn't have a good connection.

Sorry man, that's not true. My 83 Diesel pickup was having trouble starting - slow starter. I was (coincidently) at my friend's Corvette shop dropping off my 'vette (door fix) and it wouldn't start. I messed with it a bit, then opened the hood. I grabbed the terminals (say d'oh now) and while the negative side was cool to the touch.... did I mention that I 'grabbed' the terminal?... the hot side really was hot.... after fixing the ground, the truck spins so fast that I don't need to hit the glow plugs button to start it.

and it was where the negative cable connected to the frame, and the engine that had the problem (I'm really persnickity about getting good grounds - which is why this happening was such an ego-wounding experience, and hand wounding too)

 

[GT6Steve]

As this car sat for a couple years getting body work it's possible things have changed. It never did this before.

I picked up a Hitachi gear reduction starter at O'Reilly's on the way home this AM. I'm about to jack it up and have a look. I can return it tomorrow morning if it doesn't fit or if loose connections seem to be the culprit.

 

[mrvette]

168 - the other tooth one is from like early 60s/late 50s V8s....

As was reinforced to me (again), make sure your ground connections are as good as your positive connections. When you start the car, if one terminal gets hot and the other doesn't - the HOT side doesn't have a good connection.

Sorry man, that's not true. My 83 Diesel pickup was having trouble starting - slow starter. I was (coincidently) at my friend's Corvette shop dropping off my 'vette (door fix) and it wouldn't start. I messed with it a bit, then opened the hood. I grabbed the terminals (say d'oh now) and while the negative side was cool to the touch.... did I mention that I 'grabbed' the terminal?... the hot side really was hot.... after fixing the ground, the truck spins so fast that I don't need to hit the glow plugs button to start it.

and it was where the negative cable connected to the frame, and the engine that had the problem (I'm really persnickity about getting good grounds - which is why this happening was such an ego-wounding experience, and hand wounding too)

Don't make sense man, the bad/corroded connection would be the one to drop voltage across, and that would make it get warm/hot not the GOOD connection, that won't drop voltage/power across it, so it stays cold....

same shit as putting a cal rod in series with the circuit, the power drop will make it hot....

 

[GT6Steve]

Well, when I got underneath I found a relatively loose connection in that I could move the wires under the bolt. Three or four turns later it seems tight again so we'll see what happens. As I said, I never had this issue before.

That said, I've always thought it absurd for GM to group all of those important wires on a single hot dirty connection point. The Ford solenoid always more sense to me...

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

168 - the other tooth one is from like early 60s/late 50s V8s....

As was reinforced to me (again), make sure your ground connections are as good as your positive connections. When you start the car, if one terminal gets hot and the other doesn't - the HOT side doesn't have a good connection.

Sorry man, that's not true. My 83 Diesel pickup was having trouble starting - slow starter. I was (coincidently) at my friend's Corvette shop dropping off my 'vette (door fix) and it wouldn't start. I messed with it a bit, then opened the hood. I grabbed the terminals (say d'oh now) and while the negative side was cool to the touch.... did I mention that I 'grabbed' the terminal?... the hot side really was hot.... after fixing the ground, the truck spins so fast that I don't need to hit the glow plugs button to start it.

and it was where the negative cable connected to the frame, and the engine that had the problem (I'm really persnickity about getting good grounds - which is why this happening was such an ego-wounding experience, and hand wounding too)

Don't make sense man, the bad/corroded connection would be the one to drop voltage across, and that would make it get warm/hot not the GOOD connection, that won't drop voltage/power across it, so it stays cold....

same shit as putting a cal rod in series with the circuit, the power drop will make it hot....

If I had a dollar for every time someone said to me "that's impossible" followed soon by "well, I've never seen that before" I'd be a millionaire many times over. Of course, I'd also be dead because that's happened twice with things that landed me in the hospital; but I digress

I just relate what happened to me and let the eggheads figure out why. :rain:

Remember - this may help you - the diesel is one hot cable and two negative cables (four on my truck).

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Well, when I got underneath I found a relatively loose connection in that I could move the wires under the bolt. Three or four turns later it seems tight again so we'll see what happens. As I said, I never had this issue before.

That said, I've always thought it absurd for GM to group all of those important wires on a single hot dirty connection point. The Ford solenoid always more sense to me...

I'm a big believer in converting to that. I run a tie across from the hot terminal to the solenoid terminal, then a cable up the firewall to a ford solenoid. I run the starter wire (purple) to terminal and the cables and car power to the large, hot side lug.

I've had the wire from the starter to the rest of the vehicle (power) get against the header melt and short.... at 5 am on a very dark night - and got to braille my way to the side of the road at 60 mph with zero lights..... never again

if you look to the left of the filter on the firewall, you'll see the solenoid

 

[mrvette]

I have never messed with a diesel, so know nothing of the wiring....sounds kinda strange, off hand though....My '72 vette is the only car I have ever had with the battery negative going to the chassis, and then chassis to block, the obvious battery + lead is typical at the starter....there is no reason to have a Ford type solenoid.....

I was wondering WTF was up with that Ford solenoid, but not owning a V8 or any other Ford product, it took my sister's breakdown with a 390 V8 stationwagon and a defective starter, it's a totally different design than the GM, the field core on one side of the magnets, was pivoted outward in the housing bulge, and when the field was energized by the heavy solenoid, the armature would move the solenoid to engage flywheel......

so THAT little mystery was solved......:surrender::thumbs:

 

[010752]

I have never messed with a diesel, so know nothing of the wiring....sounds kinda strange, off hand though....My '72 vette is the only car I have ever had with the battery negative going to the chassis, and then chassis to block, the obvious battery + lead is typical at the starter....there is no reason to have a Ford type solenoid.....

I was wondering WTF was up with that Ford solenoid, but not owning a V8 or any other Ford product, it took my sister's breakdown with a 390 V8 stationwagon and a defective starter, it's a totally different design than the GM, the field core on one side of the magnets, was pivoted outward in the housing bulge, and when the field was energized by the heavy solenoid, the armature would move the solenoid to engage flywheel......

so THAT little mystery was solved......:surrender::thumbs:

Not common knowledge, but GM used the same solenoids in their heavy duty and problem applications. They just called it a magnetic switch.

Here is a diagram from a GM service manual.
You can also wire it as mentioned above with the external feed post as a main junction and a batt cable running to the solenoid batt post and the batt and "s" terminals on the starter jumped out. GM never used that method that I know of.



GM part numbers for the solenoids.

AC Delco #
1114534
1114537
1114547
1115616

 

[clutchdust]

Well, when I got underneath I found a relatively loose connection in that I could move the wires under the bolt. Three or four turns later it seems tight again so we'll see what happens. As I said, I never had this issue before.

That said, I've always thought it absurd for GM to group all of those important wires on a single hot dirty connection point. The Ford solenoid always more sense to me...

Three to four turns? Cable might as well have been hanging. That's a huge amp hit and I'm surprised it turned over at all. I'll be that does solve the problem.
Steve, is your exhaust stock? I just haven't seen problems from a stock configuration on the '81. But if all else fails, I think you may be right about the Ford solenoid.

 

[mrvette]

I have never messed with a diesel, so know nothing of the wiring....sounds kinda strange, off hand though....My '72 vette is the only car I have ever had with the battery negative going to the chassis, and then chassis to block, the obvious battery + lead is typical at the starter....there is no reason to have a Ford type solenoid.....

I was wondering WTF was up with that Ford solenoid, but not owning a V8 or any other Ford product, it took my sister's breakdown with a 390 V8 stationwagon and a defective starter, it's a totally different design than the GM, the field core on one side of the magnets, was pivoted outward in the housing bulge, and when the field was energized by the heavy solenoid, the armature would move the solenoid to engage flywheel......

so THAT little mystery was solved......:surrender::thumbs:

Not common knowledge, but GM used the same solenoids in their heavy duty and problem applications. They just called it a magnetic switch.

Here is a diagram from a GM service manual.
You can also wire it as mentioned above with the external feed post as a main junction and a batt cable running to the solenoid batt post and the batt and "s" terminals on the starter jumped out. GM never used that method that I know of.



GM part numbers for the solenoids.

AC Delco #
1114534
1114537
1114547
1115616

The two purple wires at the 'Ford' solenoid could be taken off and tied together, and have the same thing....that solenoid is department of redundancy department in that configuration, as long as the starter shown below is similar to the same old we been using for decades....

as for wiring shorting on headers, some of the shark wiring I have seen in later models, leaves a lot to be desired.....main problem being a white cube Molex plug in there, it get's hot/brown instead of white and burns up with bad connections.....been a old molex plug war for many a decade now, in anything electrical ......:smash:

 

[GT6Steve]

Sorry, not 3-4 complete turns, just little wrist tweaks in the confined area. Exhaust is stock and generally hasn't been a problem since the starter was replaced. It was a major issue with the old one as the wires were a mess.

 

[mrvette]

Sorry, not 3-4 complete turns, just little wrist tweaks in the confined area. Exhaust is stock and generally hasn't been a problem since the starter was replaced. It was a major issue with the old one as the wires were a mess.

My '72 shark has been totally rewired, not only because of the FI and auto/overdrive mods, but my '72 dash was a PIA twice in the early daze, and so I got in there and modified hell outta the harness to it has a ground, a light plug, a tack plug, a speedo cable, and that's IT, lights say plugged in like lord intended not splayed out like a plate of pasta as I can do all this from up top now, not downside up trying to see something while sucking on a flashlight.....:hissyfit: GOD, I"m lazy.....

:crap::gurney:

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

Sorry, not 3-4 complete turns, just little wrist tweaks in the confined area. Exhaust is stock and generally hasn't been a problem since the starter was replaced. It was a major issue with the old one as the wires were a mess.

My '72 shark has been totally rewired, not only because of the FI and auto/overdrive mods, but my '72 dash was a PIA twice in the early daze, and so I got in there and modified hell outta the harness to it has a ground, a light plug, a tack plug, a speedo cable, and that's IT, lights say plugged in like lord intended not splayed out like a plate of pasta as I can do all this from up top now, not downside up trying to see something while sucking on a flashlight.....:hissyfit: GOD, I"m lazy.....

:crap::gurney:

I'm so glad I'm not lazy like you - I simply put mine on my rotary hoist slide a floor jack under the front so I can get the arms under my car, raise it up to waist level and work away with a large mirror and light.... boy, if I was lazy like you .... rewiring an entire car so that when you work on the wiring it'd be easy sounds.... but I digress, remind me again - wouldn't rewiring the car mean you don't have to work on the wiring again?!!! :idea:

 

[mrvette]

Sorry, not 3-4 complete turns, just little wrist tweaks in the confined area. Exhaust is stock and generally hasn't been a problem since the starter was replaced. It was a major issue with the old one as the wires were a mess.

My '72 shark has been totally rewired, not only because of the FI and auto/overdrive mods, but my '72 dash was a PIA twice in the early daze, and so I got in there and modified hell outta the harness to it has a ground, a light plug, a tack plug, a speedo cable, and that's IT, lights say plugged in like lord intended not splayed out like a plate of pasta as I can do all this from up top now, not downside up trying to see something while sucking on a flashlight.....:hissyfit: GOD, I"m lazy.....

:crap::gurney:

I'm so glad I'm not lazy like you - I simply put mine on my rotary hoist slide a floor jack under the front so I can get the arms under my car, raise it up to waist level and work away with a large mirror and light.... boy, if I was lazy like you .... rewiring an entire car so that when you work on the wiring it'd be easy sounds.... but I digress, remind me again - wouldn't rewiring the car mean you don't have to work on the wiring again?!!! :idea:

I dunno, been well over a dozen years, no wiring issues....except a fuel tank ground wire popped off OR, I didn't plug it on right.....woopie doo....

I had a failure on a TQ converter lockup switch after 3 years....POS Mexican crap, I suspect....so I put in a relay to do the job, CASE CLOSED....and I monitor it with lights on the instrument panel.....

:rofl:

 

[010752]

The two purple wires at the 'Ford' solenoid could be taken off and tied together, and have the same thing....that solenoid is department of redundancy department in that configuration, as long as the starter shown below is similar to the same old we been using for decades....

I think Ford and GM wanted to keep peak potential voltage and current available to the starter/solenoid under all conditions.

My Ford van with an oem ministarter/solenoid AND remote solenoid still had a problem with the "purple" wire connection so much so that Ford even issued a TSB about it.
A lot of guys under estimate that circuit especially after hard or long time use.

 

[mrvette]

The two purple wires at the 'Ford' solenoid could be taken off and tied together, and have the same thing....that solenoid is department of redundancy department in that configuration, as long as the starter shown below is similar to the same old we been using for decades....

I think Ford and GM wanted to keep peak potential voltage and current available to the starter/solenoid under all conditions.

My Ford van with an oem ministarter/solenoid AND remote solenoid still had a problem with the "purple" wire connection so much so that Ford even issued a TSB about it.
A lot of guys under estimate that circuit especially after hard or long time use.

Ahh yes, the infamous purple wire circuit, one of my first gigs is eliminating all that mechanical interlock/switch crap, even the wife's Escort developed some troubles at about 160k miles with all that, so I cut it outta there, as I have done with almost every car I have owned, in fact one of my gigs is that I proudly DE NADERIZE all my rides....only exception was my '87 vette, spent 3 years learning FI/etc on that car.....

:bounce: