Need frame measurements of this area

JeffP1167

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Yucaipa, CA.
I need frame measurements of these areas! So hoping one of you has a frame off your car.

Anyways I need to know the dimensions right behind the motor mounts & front bumper extension area. This is because I want to do a C4 suspension conversion.

Also if any of you have a C4 front engine cradle for 88-91 I could use measurements of its mounting areas side to side

Basically I want to cut my frame behind the motor mounts and graft in new rectangular steel and then mount the c4 cradle to that instead of trying to graft a c4 front frame section.

FrontSuspension5-3-1.jpg
 
Hope these help - 78 Vette Frame:
thum_1269501f9214ce8d1.jpg

Just aft of the Motor Mount "horns" 28.75 inside, 34.75 outside. 3 x 4.25 width x height.
Outside measures of frame extensions - 33."

Cheers - Jim
 
Thanks for that info ..... Another question, when the body is on the frame is this area aft of the motor mounts easily visible from underneath so inspections for cracks can be done?

I went to a website called metalsdepot/com and for a a 6 foot section of 4x3 1/8 inch wall structural steel it is 55.00 a piece. So from aft of the motor mounts to a area for the bumper mounts is 6 feet enough?

Or should I go with 1/4 inch wall steel?

I thought about grafting the C4 front frame but heard it is a different metal then what the C3 frame is.

I've never seen how a C4 engine cradle is attached to the frame however I never see professional builds try and graft the c4 frame to another frame. They always fab in new steel then make cradle mount and shock mounts.

Also would there be a issue with just welding in the cradle verses bolting it in? Or was bolting it in just done so the factory could install the engine and trans from underneath the car as an assembly?

Here is basically what I had in mind, obviously I know this isn't a C3 frame but same principle. Any differences between frame and cradle could be fixed by welding in plate metal to shim it into position correct?

I though about eliminating the cradle but prefer to run a C4 style front spring on my car instead of coil-overs

jig3.jpg
jig4.jpg

Also I plan on using a LT1 4l60e or L-98 700r4 .... So could I eliminate the C3 engine mounts and use the C4 engine mounts and mod them so motor stays in the correct C3 position so I can use those bars right behind the cradle that attach to the cradle and frame?

c4completefront1.jpg
c3completefront1.jpg
 
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Another question, when the body is on the frame is this area aft of the motor mounts easily visible from underneath so inspections for cracks can be done?

Yes

I went to a website called metalsdepot/com and for a a 6 foot section of 4x3 1/8 inch wall structural steel it is 55.00 a piece. So from aft of the motor mounts to a area for the bumper mounts is 6 feet enough?

I'm not a fan of Metal Supermarket - the price you pay for 6' is generally the price you'd pay for a 20' section from your local steel yard

Or should I go with 1/4 inch wall steel?

1/8" is fine, simply fishplate the joint (putting a piece of 1/8" or 3/16" flat plate over the top of the weld)


I thought about grafting the C4 front frame but heard it is a different metal then what the C3 frame is.

It's steel, the arms are aluminum, but you're not welding to those

I've never seen how a C4 engine cradle is attached to the frame however I never see professional builds try and graft the c4 frame to another frame. They always fab in new steel then make cradle mount and shock mounts.

Because it's easier to move it if you bolt it

Also would there be a issue with just welding in the cradle verses bolting it in? Or was bolting it in just done so the factory could install the engine and trans from underneath the car as an assembly?
probably

Here is basically what I had in mind, obviously I know this isn't a C3 frame but same principle. Any differences between frame and cradle could be fixed by welding in plate metal to shim it into position correct?

carefully consider the strength of what you're doing. Flat plates are no where near as strong as boxes

I though about eliminating the cradle but prefer to run a C4 style front spring on my car instead of coil-overs

Good choice on keeping the spring - ground clearance is something you'll need to check

Also I plan on using a LT1 4l60e or L-98 700r4 .... So could I eliminate the C3 engine mounts and use the C4 engine mounts and mod them so motor stays in the correct C3 position so I can use those bars right behind the cradle that attach to the cradle and frame?

If I understand what you're looking at, those are sheet metal plates - not strong enough. If you need to move the motor back, making offset plates out of 3/16" and move the holes back like we do with S-10 v-8 conversions would be a possibility


As a general overview of what you're doing - see how they made a very elaborate frame to hold everything square and at ride height? that is the most important thing you will do. You could do that swap with the frame in the car, but it looks, and works better if you have full access and can measure from all points without climbing under the car

I did that kind of swap on this car, I'm so glad I did the frame - made life so much easier
P8220001.jpg
 
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I found this cradle picture and it has entirely different motor mounts then the other picture. So there appears changes were made throughout the years. I don't ever plan on trying to remove the engine from underneath and about the only benefit I see about grafting a c4 frame in verses new frame rail sections is attaching new shock mounts.

Suppose I could just strip down my original engine block and trans and use it as a jig to get the stock c3 engine mounts back in the correct location.

KGrHqRoQE8VDdozOBPF4I1uD7g60_57.jpg
 
basically here is my problem, I have a 1990 corvette that I really lost interest in and DMV wants 1300.00 to register it. I also have my 82 corvette convertible which needs a lot of work including a motor etc. etc.

However to fix up both to excellent condition would probably bankrupt me. So just thought about using the 90 as a donor and ending that project.

The benefits of the 1990 are

perfectly good running L-98 and 700r4, immaculate silver ZR1 replica rims with new tires (want to paint the 82 white over silver to-tone) excellent condition sport seats, new exhaust system from front to back (could modify to work on 82) Could also sell all un-needed parts to recover losses.

Downside to the 82

paying 165.00 a month to store it. hate the crossfire & suspension.

benefits of 82

NON-op'ed so no back fees and I have clear title. What can I say love the looks of it in every aspect

The 82

DSCF1166.jpg

DSCF1169.jpg
 
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I honestly think your plan is sound. That said, you might be further ahead parting out the C4, and building a C3 with parts specific to C3s (except the 350/700r4, I'd put those in the C3 in an instant). And yes, I would punt that cease-fire (err cross fire) into the pacific ocean - or sell it to a chalk and mark C3 owner.

I just drove my C3 with updates , and ( http://vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8505 ) honestly, it feels pretty good - so going to the added work to C4 the suspension doesn't seem like it'd be that more notable in performance when you consider the couple hundred hours it would take to do the swap
 
I honestly think your plan is sound. That said, you might be further ahead parting out the C4, and building a C3 with parts specific to C3s (except the 350/700r4, I'd put those in the C3 in an instant). And yes, I would punt that cease-fire (err cross fire) into the pacific ocean - or sell it to a chalk and mark C3 owner.

I just drove my C3 with updates , and ( http://vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8505 ) honestly, it feels pretty good - so going to the added work to C4 the suspension doesn't seem like it'd be that more notable in performance when you consider the couple hundred hours it would take to do the swap

The only downside to "c3 specific" I hate is the suspension, I have looked at upgrades but they all seem like bling filled bandages. If this c3 drove like a 90 vette it would take a stick a dynamite to get me out of the drivers seat. However I really hated driving the 82 vette from the day I bought it.

the 90 motor is cleaned up since this picture but it does have new head gaskets and all emissions parts on it. So it would be a smog legal swap

0103101649.jpg
 
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Jeff, U been working on that '90 for a long time, shame to dump it out now.....

but as to suspensions......I just went with the VBP shit years ago, and if you use the Bilstein shock upgrade route, you find with the 360 mayb 330 lbs rear spring, and I put 460 front springs, you maybe use less.....

the thing rides/handles much like my '87 used to, and yes as a stock car, the sharks are a BEAST.....

BUT keep in mind, ALL my suspension was NEW, including T-arms...this all in '95 some years later I ditched the KYB here for Bilsteins....and SO happy with the swap.....

of course I also cheated, put 17x9.5 rims with 255/50 up front and 275/50 in rear.....essentially C4 rubber with C3 profile/diameters.....now they are '89 rims....

doing it my way, you can keep the '90 drivetrain and sell the rest, save yourself untold bux and TIME.....and keep your nutz in the pants instead of leaving them in the bed every AM.......:lol::lol::stirpot:
 
Jeff, U been working on that '90 for a long time, shame to dump it out now.....

but as to suspensions......I just went with the VBP shit years ago, and if you use the Bilstein shock upgrade route, you find with the 360 mayb 330 lbs rear spring, and I put 460 front springs, you maybe use less.....

the thing rides/handles much like my '87 used to, and yes as a stock car, the sharks are a BEAST.....

BUT keep in mind, ALL my suspension was NEW, including T-arms...this all in '95 some years later I ditched the KYB here for Bilsteins....and SO happy with the swap.....

of course I also cheated, put 17x9.5 rims with 255/50 up front and 275/50 in rear.....essentially C4 rubber with C3 profile/diameters.....now they are '89 rims....

doing it my way, you can keep the '90 drivetrain and sell the rest, save yourself untold bux and TIME.....and keep your nutz in the pants instead of leaving them in the bed every AM.......:lol::lol::stirpot:

well another motivational factor is, I hate wheel bearings and the grease involved haha love the C4 hubs. Plus the cost of rebuilding c3 trailing arms, the weight of the a-arms and coil springs. I kinda want to polish all the aluminum suspension parts too.
 
Too bad you're far away(ish), I'd have you drive my C3 - my poor dad and his C4, he's only twice the money and half as fast :)

That said, the C3 stock suspension is terrible.... I remember my first (and almost my last) C3. It felt like my feet were suspended at a point in the air above the tires, and my ass was hitting the pavement. That and the suspension was either at full compression or there was air under the tires...

In any case, it's your car, and any way you need advice/help/burrs under the saddle - we're here to help :sos:
 
I am also looking at this cost wise as well. The 90 vette has 198,000 miles so even fixed up it wouldn't be worth squat. But as a donor it is worth gold and actually when I first bought it that was it's purpose but I just started fixing it up.

Don't worry, I can always buy a nice C4 and this 82 project will keep ya entertained
 
Jeff, U been working on that '90 for a long time, shame to dump it out now.....

but as to suspensions......I just went with the VBP shit years ago, and if you use the Bilstein shock upgrade route, you find with the 360 mayb 330 lbs rear spring, and I put 460 front springs, you maybe use less.....

the thing rides/handles much like my '87 used to, and yes as a stock car, the sharks are a BEAST.....

BUT keep in mind, ALL my suspension was NEW, including T-arms...this all in '95 some years later I ditched the KYB here for Bilsteins....and SO happy with the swap.....

of course I also cheated, put 17x9.5 rims with 255/50 up front and 275/50 in rear.....essentially C4 rubber with C3 profile/diameters.....now they are '89 rims....

doing it my way, you can keep the '90 drivetrain and sell the rest, save yourself untold bux and TIME.....and keep your nutz in the pants instead of leaving them in the bed every AM.......:lol::lol::stirpot:

well another motivational factor is, I hate wheel bearings and the grease involved haha love the C4 hubs. Plus the cost of rebuilding c3 trailing arms, the weight of the a-arms and coil springs. I kinda want to polish all the aluminum suspension parts too.

UHH huHHH all show NO GO.....

:clap:
 
Jeff, U been working on that '90 for a long time, shame to dump it out now.....

but as to suspensions......I just went with the VBP shit years ago, and if you use the Bilstein shock upgrade route, you find with the 360 mayb 330 lbs rear spring, and I put 460 front springs, you maybe use less.....

the thing rides/handles much like my '87 used to, and yes as a stock car, the sharks are a BEAST.....

BUT keep in mind, ALL my suspension was NEW, including T-arms...this all in '95 some years later I ditched the KYB here for Bilsteins....and SO happy with the swap.....

of course I also cheated, put 17x9.5 rims with 255/50 up front and 275/50 in rear.....essentially C4 rubber with C3 profile/diameters.....now they are '89 rims....

doing it my way, you can keep the '90 drivetrain and sell the rest, save yourself untold bux and TIME.....and keep your nutz in the pants instead of leaving them in the bed every AM.......:lol::lol::stirpot:

well another motivational factor is, I hate wheel bearings and the grease involved haha love the C4 hubs. Plus the cost of rebuilding c3 trailing arms, the weight of the a-arms and coil springs. I kinda want to polish all the aluminum suspension parts too.

UHH huHHH all show NO GO.....

:clap:

Oh it wont be all show, I plane on some upgrade to the 90 vette engine. Right off the bat it has 45 extra hp & 100ft lbs of torque more. I'm thinking about sending the dana36 off for 3.33 gears or somewhere around there.
 
I really suck with the program paint but this will give you the general idea of what I am doing.

here is a stock C3 frame, I am not sure if the 82 is any different in this area. But will address that when the time comes.

74frame2.jpg

My plan is to (red areas) cut frame & replace the (black areas) with 4x3 rectangular 1/8" wall structural steel. The (blue) area is a bar that spans to connect the frame rails on a C4 in front of the shock mounts as seen in picture below. Then I plan on on welding the motor cradle to the new frame rails but retain my original motor mounts. Then cut the C4 shock mounts off and weld to my frame as well. This of course after everything is on a jig and wheel bases and track is set and bumper extensions are in correct position.

Then I am going to buy a cheap welder and tack it all up and have my mobile welder friend come and really weld it.

So does anyone see a problem with doing it like this?

74frame22.jpg

KGrHqRoQE8VDdozOBPF4I1uD7g60_57-1.jpg

Here you can see the (blue) bar I drew in in front of the shock mounts

vetteframe1-1.jpg
 
Here is the 90 project vette aka now known as the donor vette. Its a video just click on it ....... Any money put into it it will benefit the 82 vette in all ways. I'm not overly concerned with a C4 vette they can be found cheap anywhere and I can buy one already in nice condition.

I just get a hardon when I see a nice c3 .... Figure with all this donor car I can make the 82 one hell of a nice ride that can be driven daily and driven anywhere and being its mainly a 90 parts and performance upgrades are easy.

th_vetterunning001.jpg
 
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Only if interested - click on the Download, and it will lead you to a download site. IrfanView is a Paint-like program with many more features. Not affiliated in any way - just a VERY satisfied user.

Cheers - Jim
 
Instead of trying to rig up a complicategd jig for setting up a wheel base and track width. Being that the c4 is 86.2 inches for its wheel base and the c3 has a 88 inch wheelbase and track widths are within 1 inch of each other.

Couldn't I just take and lengthen the C been 1.8 inches to establish my 88 inch needed wheelbase. Then mark center points to positionall the c4 stuff and weld into place. Thenremount c4 engine on c3 mounts to get motor in correct location.

Would this simplify making the wheelbase setup easier
 

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