New motor oil bad for vintage motors?

[Lazerith]

Is the lack of zinc killing our toys? Below is a bit of an article on the issue. I wonder if something like Slick 50 would help?

"A Recap of the Problem

ZDDP is a great additive that reduces wear between the flat lifters and cam on our old cars. The amount of ZDDP is being reduced since it negatively affects catalytic converters. This has little effect on new cars since lifter technology has changed dramatically. Excessive lifter and cam wear is a possibility on our old cars as the miles driven increases.

Some Suggested Solutions

Today, Shell Rotella T oil has plenty of ZDDP. This oil is marketed for big 18 wheel rigs and construction equipment with diesel engines, but will work just fine in older cars without catalytic converters. I found it for about $11.00 a gallon at Napa. Now the bad news, in 2007 they will phase ZDDP out of diesel oils also.

GM has a 4 oz bottle of camshaft and lifter prelube (PN 12345501) for around $9.00, which can be added at every oil change if you use conventional motor oil.

Some racing oils, marketed for vehicles used in legally sanctioned races, have plenty of ZDDP. They generally don’t meet new car warranty requirements, but for older cars who cares? Quaker State’s line of synthetic oils, Q-Racing, has the needed additive, as does Valvoline VR-1 racing oil. I found VR-1 at Napa for a about $3.25 a quart.

A vendor in Skinned Knuckles, Crosmobile, advertises MotorHead™ Hi-Z™ Motor Oil, which has a lot of ZDDP. This is a 20W-40 H.D. detergent oil. It cost $3.95 per quart and a gallon is $14.50.

I’m sure there are other solutions out there, so take a look. My suggestion is get over the extra cost and find oil for your pride and joy that has at least 0.140percent zinc and 0.130percent phosphorous by weight. Your cam and lifters will last a lot longer if you use ZDDP."

 

[Jsup]

I just read a thread about this very topic:

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/shell-rotella-t-162437.html?highlight=Rotella

good information and watch the video!

 

[big2bird]

Is the lack of zinc killing our toys? Below is a bit of an article on the issue. I wonder if something like Slick 50 would help?

I just use Valvoline racing in anything pre roller cam. I has always, and will always have zinc. If you like bargain hunting, a friend just found SE rated oil at Wal-Mart for cheap.

 

[turtlevette]

In my opinion, this is much consternation over nothing. Synthetic oils have excellent wear protection. I'm sick of all this whining about ethanol and the lack of zinc ruining engines. Again, just my opinion, but i think it's all bullshit. The removal of lead in gas was going to instantly destroy all old cars. That didn't happen. It's sounds like a bunch of old hags constantly bitching about everything.


These camshaft failures are due to extreme seat pressures being run on the street and overly aggressive camshaft profiles and the combination of both. These aggressive pressures and profiles were never meant to be run for many 10s of thousands of miles. Drag racing stuff is normally in need of rebuild after several hundred passes. These retrofit roller lifters are just bad designs.

 

[mrvette]

In my opinion, this is much consternation over nothing. Synthetic oils have excellent wear protection. I'm sick of all this whining about ethanol and the lack of zinc ruining engines. Again, just my opinion, but i think it's all bullshit. The removal of lead in gas was going to instantly destroy all old cars. That didn't happen. It's sounds like a bunch of old hags constantly bitching about everything.


These camshaft failures are due to extreme seat pressures being run on the street and overly aggressive camshaft profiles and the combination of both. These aggressive pressures and profiles were never meant to be run for many 10s of thousands of miles. Drag racing stuff is normally in need of rebuild after several hundred passes. These retrofit roller lifters are just bad designs.

:hissyfit::crap: I, ME, I agree with TV?? I better go outside, I think the moon and Mars are aligned, or something....

:withstupid:

 

[Twin_Turbo]

These camshaft failures are due to extreme seat pressures being run on the street and overly aggressive camshaft profiles and the combination of both. These aggressive pressures and profiles were never meant to be run for many 10s of thousands of miles. Drag racing stuff is normally in need of rebuild after several hundred passes. These retrofit roller lifters are just bad designs.

I have to agree, like the comp cams XEH cams, those are on the ragged edge of what's possible as far as acc. ramps go on a flat tappet style lifter with a foot the size of the SBC ones.
Also, it's a break in problem and I'm willing to bet the hardening on these comp craps is not what it's supposed to be. I have a very low opinion of them anyway, their customer service sucks and they sell overpriced junk....and they have an arrogant tone over the phone and email so F them.
Want more reliability? Get some mushroom style or better yet...get a roller and fuhgeddaboudit. True, Zinc is high press. barrier protection and it doesn't help the situation that there's less and less of it in the oils but it doesn't mean it will kill your old engine which has been fine for years and years.

Retrofit hydraulic rollers are fine, it's the solids that are giving the problems but again, those aren't meant for 10s of thousands of street miles and you can bet your azz that those running solid rollers have the seat pressure for them also.

I guess the whole marketing thing worked well for comp.....like the government they put a spell on most everyone, turning an issue with their shitty product into an oil issue and everyone is hunting oils ever since.
If you have a high open pressure you even have to go through the hassle of disassembling double valve spring and running on the outer ones, special break in springs or a lot ratio rocker. What a bunch of trouble for a camshaft.

Isky developed flat tappet camshaft rules a long time ago and the comp cams break those, no wonder there are so many failures with them.

I never used high zinc oils or additive, synth. in all mine but I never use comp camps. Crane was my brand of choice and I heard they were bought up by S&S cycles...let's hope they will be back in the game soon

 

[mrvette]

Ed Iskandarian (Isky) , man that's a name going back a ways, along with Vic Edelbrock, all them guys and the drivers of the times, hotrod legends....



Isky developed flat tappet camshaft rules a long time ago and the comp cams break those, no wonder there are so many failures with them.

I never used high zinc oils or additive, synth. in all mine but I never use comp camps. Crane was my brand of choice and I heard they were bought up by S&S cycles...let's hope they will be back in the game soon

Yuppers.....:smash:

 

[BRUTAL64]

These camshaft failures are due to extreme seat pressures being run on the street and overly aggressive camshaft profiles and the combination of both. These aggressive pressures and profiles were never meant to be run for many 10s of thousands of miles. Drag racing stuff is normally in need of rebuild after several hundred passes. These retrofit roller lifters are just bad designs.

I have to agree, like the comp cams XEH cams, those are on the ragged edge of what's possible as far as acc. ramps go on a flat tappet style lifter with a foot the size of the SBC ones.
Also, it's a break in problem and I'm willing to bet the hardening on these comp craps is not what it's supposed to be. I have a very low opinion of them anyway, their customer service sucks and they sell overpriced junk....and they have an arrogant tone over the phone and email so F them.
Want more reliability? Get some mushroom style or better yet...get a roller and fuhgeddaboudit. True, Zinc is high press. barrier protection and it doesn't help the situation that there's less and less of it in the oils but it doesn't mean it will kill your old engine which has been fine for years and years.

Retrofit hydraulic rollers are fine, it's the solids that are giving the problems but again, those aren't meant for 10s of thousands of street miles and you can bet your azz that those running solid rollers have the seat pressure for them also.

I guess the whole marketing thing worked well for comp.....like the government they put a spell on most everyone, turning an issue with their shitty product into an oil issue and everyone is hunting oils ever since.
If you have a high open pressure you even have to go through the hassle of disassembling double valve spring and running on the outer ones, special break in springs or a lot ratio rocker. What a bunch of trouble for a camshaft.

Isky developed flat tappet camshaft rules a long time ago and the comp cams break those, no wonder there are so many failures with them.

I never used high zinc oils or additive, synth. in all mine but I never use comp camps. Crane was my brand of choice and I heard they were bought up by S&S cycles...let's hope they will be back in the game soon

I agree with TT here about Comp cams. In the 80s I was taking apart about 5 to 10 SBCs and BBCs a week. EVERY Comp Cam I pulled from an engine had a flat lobe.
Crane, Isky, Claysmith, Mellings, Blue Racer, Wolverine...etc were always in good shape when I pulled them out.

I have NEVER bought a Comp Cam for myself, Crane was always my first pick.
Have had GREAT luck with Mellings in the 70s and 80s. The 30 30 cam is my Vette is a Mellings and I put that in my Vette's 327 in.......Nov 1972. Yep, 4 engines later same cam.

I have always used Valvoline Racing oil since 1969. I used to complain when I paid 35 cents a quart for it.:bounce:

 

[mrvette]

I have always use Valvoline Racing oil since 1969. I used to complain when I paid 35 cents a quart for it.



U must be a olde phardt....:crutches::harhar:

 

[BRUTAL64]

I have always use Valvoline Racing oil since 1969. I used to complain when I paid 35 cents a quart for it.



U must be a olde phardt....:crutches::harhar:

Define "olde phardt".:lol:

 

[mrvette]

I have always use Valvoline Racing oil since 1969. I used to complain when I paid 35 cents a quart for it.



U must be a olde phardt....:crutches::harhar:

Define "olde phardt".:lol:

It's that age when you feel you were fast years ago, but today you are just halffasst....:shocking::tomato:prrtt:

 

[TimAT]

Way back there, I used Pennzoil 30 racing. Nothing else. It went away and now it's Valvoline VR-1 30wt. Everything gets it. Well the old stuff anyway. Model T, both Vettes, and my lawnmower. I've got the 350 I bought new in '73 in a Camaro with a GM cam in it that's as good as new. Always had either the Pennzoil or Valvoline in it.

And I think , maybe I be an olde phardt too.

 

[mrvette]

Way back there, I used Pennzoil 30 racing. Nothing else. It went away and now it's Valvoline VR-1 30wt. Everything gets it. Well the old stuff anyway. Model T, both Vettes, and my lawnmower. I've got the 350 I bought new in '73 in a Camaro with a GM cam in it that's as good as new. Always had either the Pennzoil or Valvoline in it.

And I think , maybe I be an olde phardt too.

Nah, U R 3/4 cammed....

prrtt:

 

[big2bird]

In my opinion, this is much consternation over nothing. Synthetic oils have excellent wear protection. I'm sick of all this whining about ethanol and the lack of zinc ruining engines. Again, just my opinion, but i think it's all bullshit. The removal of lead in gas was going to instantly destroy all old cars. That didn't happen. It's sounds like a bunch of old hags constantly bitching about everything.


These camshaft failures are due to extreme seat pressures being run on the street and overly aggressive camshaft profiles and the combination of both. These aggressive pressures and profiles were never meant to be run for many 10s of thousands of miles. Drag racing stuff is normally in need of rebuild after several hundred passes. These retrofit roller lifters are just bad designs.

Jim,
Tetra Ethyl Lead was developed as an octane booster/additive. Cars ran fine before, during, and after it's use. It never concerned me one bit.
ZDDP was added years ago to help with shear, and shear remains in these flat tappet engines. The degradation of cat converters by the ZDDP led to it's reduction, and subsequent introduction of roller cams.

 

[turtlevette]

Jim,
Tetra Ethyl Lead was developed as an octane booster/additive. Cars ran fine before, during, and after it's use. It never concerned me one bit.
ZDDP was added years ago to help with shear, and shear remains in these flat tappet engines. The degradation of cat converters by the ZDDP led to it's reduction, and subsequent introduction of roller cams.

Please be open to the high probability that there are other methods/formulations in lubrication that achieve the same extreme pressure protection without the use of Zinc.

 

[big2bird]

Jim,
Tetra Ethyl Lead was developed as an octane booster/additive. Cars ran fine before, during, and after it's use. It never concerned me one bit.
ZDDP was added years ago to help with shear, and shear remains in these flat tappet engines. The degradation of cat converters by the ZDDP led to it's reduction, and subsequent introduction of roller cams.

Please be open to the high probability that there are other methods/formulations in lubrication that achieve the same extreme pressure protection without the use of Zinc.

I am. Show me data.:devil:

 

[clutchdust]

I agree with TT here about Comp cams. In the 80s I was taking apart about 5 to 10 SBCs and BBCs a week. EVERY Comp Cam I pulled from an engine had a flat lobe.
Crane, Isky, Claysmith, Mellings, Blue Racer, Wolverine...etc were always in good shape when I pulled them out.

I have NEVER bought a Comp Cam for myself, Crane was always my first pick.
Have had GREAT luck with Mellings in the 70s and 80s. The 30 30 cam is my Vette is a Mellings and I put that in my Vette's 327 in.......Nov 1972. Yep, 4 engines later same cam.

I have always used Valvoline Racing oil since 1969. I used to complain when I paid 35 cents a quart for it.:bounce:

i used to work for comp back in 1990 and they only ground the special orders in house. all the "off the shelf" cams were repackaged.
i have always run comp and probably always will. brand loyalty aside, i believe they're at the top of the list.

 

[BRUTAL64]

I agree with TT here about Comp cams. In the 80s I was taking apart about 5 to 10 SBCs and BBCs a week. EVERY Comp Cam I pulled from an engine had a flat lobe.
Crane, Isky, Claysmith, Mellings, Blue Racer, Wolverine...etc were always in good shape when I pulled them out.

I have NEVER bought a Comp Cam for myself, Crane was always my first pick.
Have had GREAT luck with Mellings in the 70s and 80s. The 30 30 cam is my Vette is a Mellings and I put that in my Vette's 327 in.......Nov 1972. Yep, 4 engines later same cam.

I have always used Valvoline Racing oil since 1969. I used to complain when I paid 35 cents a quart for it.:bounce:

i used to work for comp back in 1990 and they only ground the special orders in house. all the "off the shelf" cams were repackaged.
i have always run comp and probably always will. brand loyalty aside, i believe they're at the top of the list.

Unfortunately. for me and a few of my friends we were only going by what we have seen... and that was never good with Comp cams. I'm sure they are better, just can't get by what I saw back then.:clobbered:

 

[turtlevette]

Jim,
Tetra Ethyl Lead was developed as an octane booster/additive. Cars ran fine before, during, and after it's use. It never concerned me one bit.
ZDDP was added years ago to help with shear, and shear remains in these flat tappet engines. The degradation of cat converters by the ZDDP led to it's reduction, and subsequent introduction of roller cams.

Please be open to the high probability that there are other methods/formulations in lubrication that achieve the same extreme pressure protection without the use of Zinc.

I am. Show me data.:devil:

here is a link from a discussion on CF.

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil Tests.pdf

Looks like the royal purple uses something instead of zinc.

 

[glen242]

Jim,
Tetra Ethyl Lead was developed as an octane booster/additive. Cars ran fine before, during, and after it's use. It never concerned me one bit.
ZDDP was added years ago to help with shear, and shear remains in these flat tappet engines. The degradation of cat converters by the ZDDP led to it's reduction, and subsequent introduction of roller cams.

Please be open to the high probability that there are other methods/formulations in lubrication that achieve the same extreme pressure protection without the use of Zinc.

I am. Show me data.:devil:

here is a link from a discussion on CF.

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil Tests.pdf

Looks like the royal purple uses something instead of zinc.

Is the test in that link the infamous "1 ball-2 ball test"? This test method, I thought, was debunked as it was designed for gear oil, not motor oil.

Me, I use Valvoline VR-1, that I believe, has adequate ZDDP - 0.14/0.13. The engine is a SBC 383 with a CC XE274H cam.

BTW, since many push ZDDP additives, I went to the ZDDP Plus web site and asked what was adequate ZDDP for a SBC flat tappet engine. As of a week, no reply! Someone on BITOG said they did not know, therefore no reply. They only want to sell mouse milk to the uninformed.

All comments welcome!