Synthetic vs. dyno oil: smoking

JPhil

JPhil

Huh?
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
1,360
Location
Loveland, Colorado, USA
OK, I know I'm grasping at straws here.

I have several valve guides going south on me, one (#2 I) to the point where the plug is fouling after only a few hundred miles. The smoking is embarrassing as hell. I know the only true solution is to pull the heads, blah blah blah. I've done the leak down test (very good results, #1 showing 10%, the rest between 3 to 6%, cold). Replaced stem seals, that helped a bit, but did not cure it completely. I need a valve guide job. Fuck. I just do not want to tear the motor apart right now. In a couple months, sure, but not now.

My hotrod bouddies tell me synthetic oil will not smoke & will reduce plug fouling. I'm willing to go that route if need be, just to get me 2 or 3 more months. I don't quite see how, but I have no experience with synthetic oil. I currently run old-style high-zinc Rotella & I have a couple gallons left.
I have tried researching this on the computer with no results.
Is this true, or just BS?

Except for this pisser, the car is running fuckin-A great.
Thanks for your thoughts,
John
 
Synthetic oil is still going to create smoke. It may smoke a little less.

Just go in and put the umbrella type valve stem seals and keep motoring like a mo-fo.

I missed the part where you said you replaced the seals. What type did you use?
 
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I have the Viton press-on seals on them, but no 'umbrellas' on the exhaust (or intake) springs as per OEM. & I don't think those would fit over my aftermarket springs anyway.

At least #2 plug is easy to get to since I threw the A/C crap in the attic.:rolleyes:
 
JPhil said:
I have the Viton press-on seals on them, but no 'umbrellas' on the exhaust (or intake) springs as per OEM. & I don't think those would fit over my aftermarket springs anyway.

At least #2 plug is easy to get to since I threw the A/C crap in the attic.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

??? you have those (I forget the name, shrouds?) over top of the springs then the retainers/keepers, there is a O ring under them on the ring at the stem tip....

but the 'umbrella' seals set over top of the hump on the head casting, down lo inside the spring, and on the exhaust they ride up and down on the stem with the valve....keeping oil off the head/guide....the intakes fit over the head and the stem slides through it....

they maybe vary slightly in design, but both int/ex fit inside the springs down lo....
 
Gene,

Perhaps I have the nomenclature wrong--I do NOT have the OEM style metal umbrella shroud which fits under the retainer, on top of & around the valve spring, with an o-ring toward the top of the stem at the keepers.
These are AFR heads.
I do have the Viton seals which press onto the guide, which I guess are an "umbrella" style, but that's not the term I'm used to using for them. As I was learned, the Viton style are called "press-on (or push-on) seals" and the metal (drip) caps on the spring tops are "umbrellas".
 
JPhil said:
I have the Viton press-on seals on them, but no 'umbrellas' on the exhaust (or intake) springs as per OEM. & I don't think those would fit over my aftermarket springs anyway.

At least #2 plug is easy to get to since I threw the A/C crap in the attic.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

How many miles do you have on those heads? I bought a ragged out set of L98 heads on ebay then put another 100 k on them and they still don't leak oil though the valve stem. I used the umbrella seals though which really control the oil well.
 
JPhil said:
Gene,

Perhaps I have the nomenclature wrong--I do NOT have the OEM style metal umbrella shroud which fits under the retainer, on top of & around the valve spring, with an o-ring toward the top of the stem at the keepers.
These are AFR heads.
I do have the Viton seals which press onto the guide, which I guess are an "umbrella" style, but that's not the term I'm used to using for them. As I was learned, the Viton style are called "press-on (or push-on) seals" and the metal (drip) caps on the spring tops are "umbrellas".
Click to expand...

My guess is that the play in the stem is destroying the seal after just a very few miles. The umbrella seals are a rubber or rubber/plastic cup that simply slides on the stem inside the spring. If you have an inner spring in a dual spring setup there will be no room.
 
13,000 miles. AFR Street 180s. Purchased 5 years ago, installed 4 years ago. That's why I am so bummed out. Definately not abused: I'm such a fucking conservative fucking driver although I get a hair up my ass once in a while. (It was a 39 MPH over the limit ticket, and he was cutting me slack--40 over is automatic arrest & tow the car)

OK, you're saying "umbrella" seals--you mean the rubber (orwhatthefuckever) ones which press onto the guides or the OEM style metal spring-top drippers??

edit: Yeah, inner & outer springs with a damper between. But these Viton seals are the exact same as was on there, and they fit inside the inner spring. Barely.
 
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JPhil said:
OK, you're saying "umbrella" seals--you mean the rubber (orwhatthefuckever) ones which press onto the guides or the OEM style metal spring-top drippers??
Click to expand...


NO, the metal cap is another oil shield. The umbrella seal is way under that and does exactly that. Its a little umbrella to shield the valve guide from sucking all that oil that is raining down on it. They are very effective at controlling oil while allowing just enough lubrication. The pressed on viton seals actually scrub the stem of oil which is probably your problem. The guide wore out for lack of lubrication. These performance manufacturers need to be careful applying racing crap on the street. Their design is probably only rated for 10 k miles.

read page 51 and top of 52 under oil seals here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mm8oM7_OuDEC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=umbrella+oil+seal&source=bl&ots=nnm4jNs8BL&sig=fQjgFHWio6eZDn6v8LvT3NXKmWQ&hl=en&ei=5sAZSrXfDuGMtgf_nvHeDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#PPA51,M1

pressed on wiper seals are meant for racing stuff that don't see a lot of miles.

looks like you are shit out of luck. Here put in this smokeless synthetic motor oil

http://www.smokelessoil.com/NewWebsite/faqs.php
 
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Thanks Jim! This is what I'm looking for!

OK, The seals I have are the style on the top RIGHT (not left as I originally typed) in the photo on page 50. The shop where I got them from is the place who did the machine work on my engine and they are of the highest repute and build many of the local racing engines. Perhaps that is the problem--they build racing engines! No, my seals are not 'umbrella' seals as you & the article explain them. & yes I was thinking that lack of lubrication is what wore out my guides, but who am I to second guess professional engine builders? I still will believe in Greeley Automotive Machine (Bruce Yackey) and I will go there for my machine work & parts. When I take my heads there for the guide job, I will discuss this seal 'issue' with them, and I have no doubt they will understand & put different seals on. I bear them no grudge whatsoever, they are an excellent place to do business--everything else on my motor that they touched is still tits-on.

PS I had looked at that very same article on my computer but did not put 2+2 together untl you told me......
 
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Have you used that ENTEK oil? Or have any experience with it? Sounds like snake oil to me......But what the hell---wouldn't snake oil be environmentally friendly? Hell, if it works & pisses off Gene, that's two good reasons to try it!:stirpot:
 
The top left is the umbrella seal it just sits on the valve stem and keeps oil from being sucked down in excess quantities. The others require a machines valve guide boss too.
 
Shit I just now realized I got my left & right mixed up. My seals are TOP RIGHT in the picture. Dumfuk sombitch I am sometimes.

I get red & green confused still sometimes too. Too much LSD in the past I guess
 
Those are positive stop viton rubber seals. Never really had probs w/ those, they are std. equipment on GM Perf. parts stuff like the L98 & ZZ4.
Nothing wrong with them IMO.
 
Twin_Turbo said:
Those are positive stop viton rubber seals. Never really had probs w/ those, they are std. equipment on GM Perf. parts stuff like the L98 & ZZ4.
Nothing wrong with them IMO.
Click to expand...

Then why is he still blowing smoke after putting a new seal on? I have L98 heads and they are NOT machined for wiper seals.
 
turtlevette said:
Twin_Turbo said:
Those are positive stop viton rubber seals. Never really had probs w/ those, they are std. equipment on GM Perf. parts stuff like the L98 & ZZ4.
Nothing wrong with them IMO.
Click to expand...

Then why is he still blowing smoke after putting a new seal on? I have L98 heads and they are NOT machined for wiper seals.
Click to expand...

Maybe the source of the oil is not the guides. Maybe a leaking intake gasket?
 
OK, back in from the garage... I have not pulled the carb to look in the manifold nor the headers to look in the exhaust port. But I pulled the springs from #2 again (the most heavily fouled) & I have just barely perceptible wiggle of the intake valve in the guide. Shit. To me, from my experience with bikes, this says oil suckin' mofo. The new Viton press on positive seal is still in place though.......200 miles on it, mixed county road & city, and the oil fouling is only on one side of the plug porcelain & electrode. I did not index (or 'clock', if you prefer that term!) my plugs so I do not know which valve the fouling points to, but I now tend to suspect that intake guide......All the other plugs look good now. 3 of them got new seals 200 miles ago (last weekend), the ones that looked good then did not get new seals & still look good today......
 
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turtlevette said:
JPhil said:
The new Viton press on positive seal is still in place though.......200 miles on it, ......
Click to expand...


Does it seem pliable enough to handle the runout/slop? I don't get it. How much is it really smoking?
Click to expand...

Yeah the seal seems pliable & tight enough on the stem, it is secure on the guide. It is brand new.

The car blows a puff when I first start it (maybe about like a cigarette smoker blowing a puff out the window at a stoplight), & when it idles for than a minute or two it starts puffing, and when I first accelerate. Of course I cannot see the acceleration puff, I'm relying on "non-professional 3rd party eyewitness discription", but I don't think it's continuous & I don't think it does it on decceleration. It's not an obscene cloud at any time, just puffing. With my X-pipe in the exhuast I cannot tell which bank.

I can deal with the drips under it, but I am mortified by the smoking.

I snugged up the manifold bolts (& others) several weeks ago & removed, then changed, then put back the PCV valve with no effect. Not sucking oil through the PCV. I have been doing down-shift deccelerations, & to a lesser extent, a few hard-throttle accelerations to reseat the rings for several hundred miles now: no noticable effect so far. Cold leak-down test excellent, but there's so much noise coming from the crankcase I could not hear if any was blowing back through the intake manifold even with a listening hose down the carb. I don't think it was. I have not done compression or vacuum checks, but see no reason to. #2 is the problem one, and it is the only one I checked for wiggle of the valves in the guides. As I said above, the intake had barely perceptible wiggle but the exhaust had none at all. I had two other cylinders which showed lesser fouling (#3 & #8), and new seals took care of them. I did not replace the new seals on #2.

Wow, just going over this in my head as I type, a thought occured to me--it was developing a mis-fire in this last week after the tune-up & seal replacement which I attrbuted to the oil fouling. But perhaps I have a bad plug, wire or connection to #2 which was causing the misfire & allowing it foul--Hmmm--interesting, I'll look into that here in a few minutes. (But irregardless of that, the car is still sucking oil.) The wires are at least 5 years old with probably around 20,000 miles on them. & #2 is the longest one in the set. I have also seen bad plugs from the box in the past--I'll change out that plug too. (MSD 8.5mm wires, MSD tach drive distributor curved by Lars, 6A box, MSD Blaster2 coil, NGK FR4 plugs. Replaced cap, rotor, plugs last weekend as well)
 
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