Trackday carb issue

69427

The Artist formerly known as Turbo84
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Mar 30, 2008
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Clinging to my guns and religion in KCMO.
Did a test and tune session at Mid-America Motorplex in SW Iowa today. Had a few changes to the car that I wanted to evaluate (lower front roll center, different brake pad compound, additional bellypan area, CAI box). Beautiful day, 77* and clear skies.
The first session was reasonable uneventful. Just went out to re-familiarize myself with the track (my second time there), and slowly build up some speed to bed-in the new pads. Lotsa bite with the new pads, but I found a couple times under hard braking that the rear got a bit loose. I'd like to think that the reduced camber gain in the front allowed the front tires to be more effective, causing weight transfer off the rears and causing them to unload, but I'm realistic enough to admit I don't have the exact reason figured out yet. Because I had limited time at the track to figure everything out, I pulled out the new compound pads in the rear and put the older (lower Cf) compound back in. The brakes were very comfortable and predictable after that.
The second session was fun, for a while. The engine ran great, the brakes held up without overheating (I've got some tabs on the bellypan to divert air from under the car out to the four wheels), and the car was pretty predictable, with a hint of oversteer at the limit. (I'm curious at times if I have too much camber gain in the rear, which might also be a factor in the loose while braking issue. I need to figure out an answer to that.) The cold air box was working, as evidenced by a couple pieces of tape hanging on the scoop entrance bending inward towards the air filter at speed.
A problem arose halfway into the second session. The engine suddenly felt soft going through a couple corners, but felt crisp at the exits. I recalled that my '84 always does that when it's low on fuel, as the fuel sloshes away from the pickup in the corners. I looked at the fuel gauge and it was on E, and I cussed at myself that I forgot to add fuel between sessions. But then I thought, this engine is carb'd, it shouldn't be that sensitive to fuel pickup during cornering as the mechanical pump can just keep pumping all the fuel in the eight foot of tubing between the tank and the pump. While I was trying to process what the problem was (and trying to keep the car between the green stuff) the engine died and I couldn't get it to refire by periodically letting out the clutch. I was trying to get the engine to restart, but I was also trying to coast the remaining mile back to the pits, and I couldn't afford to slow the car down unnecessarily. I finally ran out of momentum and pulled off the track. I got out of the car to check the fuel level in the tank (and got my ass chewed for getting out of the car a bit later when the tow guy showed up) and saw that I had about 2-3 inches of fuel in the tank. Why wouldn't it start? Did I have an ignition failure, or ??? I popped the hood and pulled the air cleaner lid off and the fuel was pouring out of the carb and down into the manifold. If I had a stuck float needle I would expect some flooding while running, but once the engine/pump stopped, the fuel flow should stop reasonably soon afterward, shouldn't it? But the fuel was still pouring in after a minute or two (the time it took for me to check the tank and remove the air cleaner top). So I thought, did I just get a good case of vapor lock, and I'm boiling the fuel in the line somewhere? Possible, but crap, it's 77*, the coolest track day I've run in the past two summers. The engine ran fine on those previous 95-101* days, so WTH?
So, I got towed back to the pits, and winched the car into the trailer, as I didn't want to try to start the engine in the pits with gasoline-diluted 3 weight oil in the pan.
I want to get car back into the garage and get the oil drained & replaced, but I don't want to lose another pan of oil if the carb pukes again while I'm debugging it. Maybe I'll rig up something to put a few psi of fuel pressure on the carb before I change the oil.
 
yesterday, I ran into a bit of the same problem. I cut the fuel line under the floorboard to put a filter in-line. Fortunately, I had my oil drain pan under the line.... it wouldn't stop running (siphoning). I stopped it by grabbing my air hose and blowing into the cut in the line (thus pushing the fuel back.) Perhaps same issue with yours - once it starts siphoning down 8' of line, it's not likely going to stop easily.... especially if the relative levels of the fuel and outlet are the same.

and the more I think about it.... with where the fuel tank is on a C3, that tank bottom has to be at least as high as the carb - and I don't think a fuel pump (cam driven) has anything to prevent the fuel from continuing to flow? hmmm, I've never run into it before either - so maybe someone else will pipe in and teach us both?
 
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Had a similar problem just normal street driving. Although the temp was more around 90 degrees out. The car started chugging and although the car remained running, it was very rough. Pulled it over and popped the hood and pulled the air cleaner. Fuel was pouring into the manifold. The car was hot so it looked like it was possibly boiling over.

The problem only happened after the engine was completely warmed up. This happened 3 time in a row.

I changed the fuel pump thinking it was the culprit...but same problem.

Finally change the carb and problem went away...and yes I had to drain the oil all those times.

It was a qjet. When I went through the carb, I noticed that the casting looked like it had many small cracks and the airhorn was really warped (it had been warped for a while). Needle and seat were set up and fit properly. Only thing I could figure is that the heat caused the metal to expand and the cracks just let the fuel flow out.....
 
I'll put a bit of the carb's history here for context. I bought this 4781 850DP new back in the seventies and put in on an Edelbrock Torker on top of the original engine. I ran this setup for several years. On occasion this carb would just suddenly take a crap and puke fuel down into the manifold. I was never clear on the reasons why. I was in my twenties, and certainly wasn't a carb expert (still don't claim to be a carb expert). I lived in Alaska at the time, and it was rare to ever get a day in the eighties, so vaporlock was never an issue we worried about there. I frequently took the carb apart and cleaned it after a flooding issue in the event that there was some crap in the seat area or in the bowl (I always ran a filter so I shouldn't have been getting crap in the carb in the first place). After this fuel spillage issue popped up one too many times I was convinced that this carb was demon possessed, and I replaced it with a 3310 780 VS. I ran that carb for about 25 years until it took a crap at a track day (engine went 22:1 lean under power due to a piece of gasket crap blocking one of the jets). I blew the dust off the 850, got a rebuild kit for it and then stuck the rebuilt 850 on the engine in July 2011. The car has had several track days (most in the 95 to 101* range ambient temperatures) with no issues, other than the recent return spring/high idle problem detailed in another thread. So, I'm trying to figure out what the deal is with this carb and (its susceptibility to) flooding issues.
 
I found this picture, and wanted to show you how high the gas tank is in relation to the carb

framegastankpicture75corvette.jpg
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Take a look at the floats. Brass floats have been known to get a pinhole or leak at the seam and with a little fuel inside they can't control the level. The plastic (nitrofil) just get waterlogged and too heavy. Same effect.

About the only things that will let a carb run over like you're describing are the floats too high or the needle not able to control the levels because of some junk in the seat. I've seen a couple of Holley carbs that the float bowls had a fair amount of garbage on the bottom but never did have a flooding problem.
 
Take a look at the floats. Brass floats have been known to get a pinhole or leak at the seam and with a little fuel inside they can't control the level. The plastic (nitrofil) just get waterlogged and too heavy. Same effect.

About the only things that will let a carb run over like you're describing are the floats too high or the needle not able to control the levels because of some junk in the seat. I've seen a couple of Holley carbs that the float bowls had a fair amount of garbage on the bottom but never did have a flooding problem.

Taking a peek at the float level/seat seal is on my plans tomorrow. I'm going to try to rig up a small (lawnmower) gas tank about 12-15 feet up in the rafters to put some fuel pressure on the seat to check the level, and to see if it's still going to puke out fuel into the manifold. I've got the old fuel-soaked oil drained out and I don't want to potentially ruin another panful of good oil by starting the engine and having the carb puke all over the place again.
 
maybe rig up a pressure the gas tank with a bicycle pump instead (then you can test to specific pressures)

Somthing to keep in my back pocket.

The thing is, I have a vented gas cap on the tank, and the carb was still puking after I had pulled off the track and removed the cap to check the fuel level/height. I didn't detect any pressure "whoosh" type sound when I pulled off the cap.

I've got a pressure gauge that's teed into the fuel line while I'll be bumping up the pressure to the carb.
 
out of curiosity, how much fuel was in the tank when this happened?

Looking into the tank it appeared to be about 2-2 1/2 inches. The gauge said E which is why I initially thought the stumble and engine dieing was from lack of fuel.

My curiosity got to me today so I changed plans and pulled the primary bowl off. It looked normal in there, and spotless (which made sense as I rebuilt it only about 300 miles ago). I sprayed a bunch of carb cleaner in and around the needle & seat area and put the bowl back on. Started the engine up and it puked out fuel just like before. I quickly shut the engine off to reduce the amount of injested fuel. I then thought, is there something wrong with my fuel pump? I assume there's a spring somewhere in the pump (on the diaphram?) to limit the fuel pressure and allow the pump to run in a deadheaded mode without damage. I wondered if the pump failed during the higher engine speeds around the track. Before I seriously considered removing the pump I thought I'd try something else. I took the primary bowl off my 780 Holley that's been gathering dust since last year and put it on the 850. I started up the engine again and it ran great, with no puking issue. So, in the meantime I'm going to run the 780 bowl on this carb.
I took the 850 bowl completely apart and looked at the needle and seat. It looked clean and brand new, as it was a new part a few hundred miles ago. I might just replace the seat assembly anyway and then put the bowl on the 780 for a track backup carb.
If nothing else I eliminated the possibility that this was a thermal issue (ie: boiling fuel and vapor lock). I've blocked off a lot of the engine compartment air flow lately and I wondered at the track if that was the problem, or a part of the problem.
 
What's the float look like? Can you dent it with a fingernail and see if it's wet? Or shake it. Depends on what float it is.
 
What's the float look like? Can you dent it with a fingernail and see if it's wet? Or shake it. Depends on what float it is.

It's the regular soldered brass(?) float. I shook it a couple times and didn't detect any internal fluid.

I'm tempted to buy a new needle assembly and a new float to install in the bowl, and then keep the present parts for spares.
 
do you have a pressure gauge?

Yeah, 6 1/2 to 7 pounds at idle, and 6 pounds steady at 2000 RPM. I don't know what the target pressure is that this (AC Delco) pump is supposed to put out, but this appears to be the range for hi-perf pumps listed in the Summit catalog I have.

I'd limit it to 5 psi, 3 psi is more than enough.
 
What's the float look like? Can you dent it with a fingernail and see if it's wet? Or shake it. Depends on what float it is.

It's the regular soldered brass(?) float. I shook it a couple times and didn't detect any internal fluid.

I'm tempted to buy a new needle assembly and a new float to install in the bowl, and then keep the present parts for spares.

I had a similar problem to yours when I first got my '73 (w/ Holley 650 double pumper). I fought it for awhile and checked both floats several times but couldn't find any issues and figured floats couldn't be the problem. After chasing my tail for a few weeks, I changed both floats just for grins and have not had the problem since.

DC
 
do you have a pressure gauge?

Yeah, 6 1/2 to 7 pounds at idle, and 6 pounds steady at 2000 RPM. I don't know what the target pressure is that this (AC Delco) pump is supposed to put out, but this appears to be the range for hi-perf pumps listed in the Summit catalog I have.

I'd limit it to 5 psi, 3 psi is more than enough.

i would have to agree. although i thought i was alone with this problem. every time i have driven my car above 75 and i shut the car off. if i don't quickly pop the hood the fuel will boil in the float bowls and puke into the engine..... after me not knowing what was happening and not being able to start the car back up twice due to it being flooded to hell and back i just pop the hood when i shut it off. cant say i've ever had it happen to me while i was running. never felt the car load up or anything. ... would you happen to have bowls with an adjustable float and a sight glass? pressure regulator and checking float level would be the only answers other than you have a fuel line in a very hot place. if you happen to think that is the issue you could try buying some fire sleeve to put over your fuel line
 

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