Water Injection

DeeVeeEight

Fast Pedalphile
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Southern New Jersey, USA
A few decades ago I read an article in Popular Mechanics Magazine about water injection on internal combustion engines. I followed their diagram and cobbled up a water vapor injection system and installed it on a (cough) AMC Hornet I owned at the time. It was a 6 cylinder car so there was plenty of room under the hood for my cave man water injection system. In a nutshell the system introduced water vapor through the vacuum advance line in to the base of the carburetor. With a little tweaking of the idle mixture screws the system performed great as long as the outside temperature was above freezing.
The system helped my sooty exhaust tip turn from black to grey and improved fuel economy well over 15%.

Would a crude system like this work on a high performance street driven engine? What are the pro's and con's? :fishing:
 
I'm also interested in learning more about water injection. Our air is generally pretty dry in west Texas and my '73 sure does seem to run much better on those rare humid days, especially if the air temp is not too high.

DC
 
:hunter:

ALL ears on this one....BUMP.....

so how is the water dispersed in a DPFI setup???

I suppose that little vacuum port I have blocked under the t-body would work ok...so how is it metered into that spot???

:bonkers:
 
:hunter:

ALL ears on this one....BUMP.....

so how is the water dispersed in a DPFI setup???

I suppose that little vacuum port I have blocked under the t-body would work ok...so how is it metered into that spot???

:bonkers:

The system used very simple clear plastic fish tank tubing (like for the filter and aerator) and a "T" valve. The T valve was adjustable and you could dial it in very easily.
 
Just a few comments on water injection....

Water injection was developed and used during WWII on high performance aircraft engines. The purpose of water injection is to suppress detonation under high boost conditions, allowing higher boost without detonation. The water injection itself does not produce more power - it allows higher boost levels, or more advanced timing, to be used without increasing fuel octane rating, thus creating more power.

It has been used in automotive applications for the same reasons - the Turbo Corvair Monza Spyders had water injection to allow higher boost levels and thus more power. Many aftermarket turbo manufacturers offer water injection kits to allow higher boost - and power - levels. Again, the water does not produce more power - it allows use of higher boost.

I've seen stated that the water turns to steam, and the steam creates more cylinder pressure and thus more power. The coefficient of expansion of water-to-steam is nowhere close to the power and expansion of burning gasoline, so the steam is not creating more power - it is only suppressing detonation. In fact, water (and humidity in the air) displaces oxygen, and will actually produce a power loss - not a gain. By displacing some of the oxygen, humid conditions cause an engine to effectively run richer, and that is the reason some people observe a smooth-out of their idle and better running performance. If you observe this under high humidity conditions, you are actually better off tuning your carb and setting it up right rather than displacing the oxygen in the air with water vapor. Dry air has the highest density (mass) of available oxygen - humidity displaces oxygen. The water injected into the engine does not turn into free Hydrogen and free Oxygen molecules to create power - this would require nuclear fission, and your small block Chevy is not a nuclear reactor. Further, your internal combustion engine is a heat engine, and produces more power with more heat. When water turns to steam, it is actually consuming energy to produce the change in state from liquid to vapor, thus cooling combustion chamber temperatures.

It is possible that water injection can produce better mileage if the carb was running too lean to start with: By effectively richening the mixture to a "correct" A/F ratio, you will produce better power with the same throttle opening. But you can get the same, and probably better, results by fixing your carb and jetting it correctly to start with.

In summary, water injection is a great way to suppress detonation in high compression engines and in supercharged engines, thus allowing more aggressive timing curves and higher levels of boost, thus producing more power. Water injection in and of itself does not produce more power, but may give the illusion of better operation and performance by masking the problems created by an incorrectly set up carb.

Lars
 
I was kind of wondering, so the obvious answer is....it will do NO good for my basic speed density L98 type setup.....

oh well, another idea shot down....back to sanding....

:clobbered:
 
I lowers combustion temperatures and thus reduces the risk of detonation. Lars is right. It's mainly for boost engines.

However if you were to mount a turbo on a normal CR engine...you would experience severe detonation and then h2O injection could help out a bit.
I'm not completely sure, but I read that methanol injection could have the same effect (it also has an energy content and higher octane than regular fuel)
 
I read that methanol injection could have the same effect (it also has an energy content and higher octane than regular fuel)

Methanol and/or ethanol is often added to the water in an injection system. The alcohol prevents the water from freezing, and the alcohol actually will burn, thus preventing the power loss associated with straight water. Yet ethanol/methanol has less BTH's/gal than gasoline, so you don't gain power by injecting alcohol into the cylinder. Alcohol will support much higher compression and/or boost than gasoline, so you can get more power by taking advantage of the detonation suppression again. The late-war Japanese Zeros used water-alcohol injection to run the boost beyond normal limits when the throttle was pushed past the "emergency" gate. Allied fighter pilots could always tell when the late-war Zeros went to "emergency" power due to the white water vapor streaming from the exhaust extractor stubs...

Lars
 
When i use to work on Sweringen Metroliner twin turbo prop planes late 80's early 90's,they had a water/alcohol injection on them for summer use,it would keep EGT down,and help to build more power,some of the older ones had RATO assist.
 
When i use to work on Sweringen Metroliner twin turbo prop planes late 80's early 90's,they had a water/alcohol injection on them for summer use,it would keep EGT down,and help to build more power,some of the older ones had RATO assist.

Would water injection be an option to blending your gas for your engine Kevin?
 
When i use to work on Sweringen Metroliner twin turbo prop planes late 80's early 90's,they had a water/alcohol injection on them for summer use,it would keep EGT down,and help to build more power,some of the older ones had RATO assist.

Same concept again. The water/alcohol is not creating any power. The injected water, when converted to steam through a change in state, absorbs energy (heat), thus lowering EGT. Turbine throttle position (max power) is limited by EGT. On a hot day - high OAT, you can easily exceed redline EGT, and you have to limit throttle setting. Injecting water/alcohol lowers EGT and allows use of more throttle. The water itself is not producing any power - it is allowing you to use the power already available.

(I have a turbine engine rating on my commercial license - I've been through the Bell Helicopter turbine engine school, and I'm an A&P - I'm really not making this stuff up...)

Lars
 
When i use to work on Sweringen Metroliner twin turbo prop planes late 80's early 90's,they had a water/alcohol injection on them for summer use,it would keep EGT down,and help to build more power,some of the older ones had RATO assist.

Same concept again. The water/alcohol is not creating any power. The injected water, when converted to steam through a change in state, absorbs energy (heat), thus lowering EGT. Turbine throttle position (max power) is limited by EGT. On a hot day - high OAT, you can easily exceed redline EGT, and you have to limit throttle setting. Injecting water/alcohol lowers EGT and allows use of more throttle. The water itself is not producing any power - it is allowing you to use the power already available.

(I have a turbine engine rating on my commercial license - I've been through the Bell Helicopter turbine engine school, and I'm an A&P - I'm really not making this stuff up...)

Lars

I believe you and you are correct in your statement,i just did not go into the detail that you did,which is cool, I have private pilot rating that i obtained in 1986 but have not flown in 10 years now (too expensive) and got my A&P in 1989 Spartan Aeronautics in Oklahoma,have not worked on airplanes for about 10 years now either.No helicopter training of any type worked for 3 different airlines and an FBO.

SmoknBBC water injection instead of using the race fuel,i suppose it could work, but i do not think it is good to constantly spray water into your motor,i would have to carry a large supply of water.
 
When i use to work on Sweringen Metroliner twin turbo prop planes late 80's early 90's,they had a water/alcohol injection on them for summer use,it would keep EGT down,and help to build more power,some of the older ones had RATO assist.

Same concept again. The water/alcohol is not creating any power. The injected water, when converted to steam through a change in state, absorbs energy (heat), thus lowering EGT. Turbine throttle position (max power) is limited by EGT. On a hot day - high OAT, you can easily exceed redline EGT, and you have to limit throttle setting. Injecting water/alcohol lowers EGT and allows use of more throttle. The water itself is not producing any power - it is allowing you to use the power already available.

(I have a turbine engine rating on my commercial license - I've been through the Bell Helicopter turbine engine school, and I'm an A&P - I'm really not making this stuff up...)

Lars

I believe you and you are correct in your statement,i just did not go into the detail that you did,which is cool, I have private pilot rating that i obtained in 1986 but have not flown in 10 years now (too expensive) and got my A&P in 1989 Spartan Aeronautics in Oklahoma,have not worked on airplanes for about 10 years now either.No helicopter training of any type worked for 3 different airlines and an FBO.

SmoknBBC water injection instead of using the race fuel,i suppose it could work, but i do not think it is good to constantly spray water into your motor,i would have to carry a large supply of water.

One of the plus to water injection is it will clean the carbon off the top of the pistions and combustion chambers.
I ran water/alcohol injection for 20 years on 11:1 cast iron head engines from 78 to 98. You have to find the fine line of how much to spray the engine with. So while possible to help a high compression motor not detonate it takes time to get it right.:beer:
 
Yes, there's a fine line between suppressing detonation and "putting out the fire"... You're right - You can use water to knock the carbon out of the combustion chamber: The popular trick back in the 60's and 70's was to put some water in one of the "original" Coke (glass) bottles, hold your thumb over it, rev the engine, and let the water drizzle into the carb venturi. Black and white smoke would pour out the tailpipe of the car, and it would sputter, shake and rattle.. and when you were all done, the idle would be smoother, and the carbon would be gone out of the combustion chambers.

On the cars we have run with water injection for detonation suppression, I have used a system that uses a Ford windshield washer pump (continuous spray type) pumping water/alcohol through a vacuum hose to the carb venturi. Near the hose outlets at the carb, I installed a slightly fatter section of hose that allowed the insertion of a regular Holley carb jet into the hose. This allowed "tuning" of the injection by simply swapping the jet in the discharge hose. The washer pump was triggered by a manifold pressure switch. With today's technology, you could trigger the pump with a knock sensor - that would work pretty slick..
 
Those old JT-3's would smoke pretty good on water:
2349bb493f0566c.jpg

The early 747's had water injection too. It was disabled afte the first couple of years- the water was too heavy and took up weight that could be used for people/cargo/fuel.
 
.[/QUOTE]

One of the plus to water injection is it will clean the carbon off the top of the pistions and combustion chambers.
[/QUOTE]


I guess this is what I was experiencing with the old 6 banger plus a too lean carb mixture ( I used to always lean my cars out back then, didn't know any better), that's what gave me the illusion of better/cleaner performance.
 
Those old JT-3's would smoke pretty good on water:
2349bb493f0566c.jpg

The early 747's had water injection too. It was disabled afte the first couple of years- the water was too heavy and took up weight that could be used for people/cargo/fuel.

Certainly no expert on this subject (or any other subject) but my understanding of water injection on B-52 models was that on take off you put 900 lbs of water through the eight jet engines in 90 seconds on take-off for additional thrust to assist in getting that aircraft off the ground with full payload. Once that water dump was made there was no additional weight to deal with.

Rich :drink:
 

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