UAW wages to blame?

[mrvette]

I have been in the IBEW 30 years. Our pension is self funded, and has NEVER asked for a taxpayer dime.
I do NOT get paid holidays and vacations. I get paid for when I work, and get ZERO when off work. 1/2 of my pay raises go towards rising medical benefits. If I do not work 120 hrs a month, I get ZERO medical. When we retire, we get Health coverage for 6 months, not life.
These are FACTS, not BS propaganda.
Your FACTS are MYTHS to me.
My pension is based on how many hours I have worked, PERIOD. More hours contributed, more monthly benefit earned. It's every bit MY money as my SS contributions.(You know, the one our Govt. borrows from).

I thought we were talking in the context of UAW and GM. They get benes for life, and the rest of what I mention.

My FIL was in a union, he worked the docks in Elizabeth, NJ. Had his pension stolen, and yes, the taxpayer does back your pension. If your pension money gets stolen, or down the toilet, guess who gets to pay?:yahoo:

The UAW wages account for approximately 3% of the cost of a car. Nothing to do with the big picture at all.

As for your FIL, I am not sure about the Longshoreman union at all. News to me about the bailout.

Look, I can see the stigma we face every day. Some IS true, some is not, and some is LONG gone and the stigma carrys on.
A worker living in America needs X dollars to survive. A worker in a 3rd world country needs less, and therefore makes less. Manufacturing is moving there claiming "unions killed us." However, quality has gone to shit, and the imported crap costs the SAME. Where did the money go? Wall street, via the Cayman Islands.LOL

MY welder buddy back from some power plant scrubber welding in Pittsburgh last Wednesday....he said his LOCAL had something like 3.x BILLION bux in the LOCAL treasury....which is reported to the Feds on, and they get audited close by the .gov and the national union....

I question that account is THAT high...but they all swear by the numbers....

whole LONG stack of zeros there.....:crap: but they have some 700 guys ready to retire soon enough or on the dole now.....but that account is NOT HURTING, period....muvva ducker....even if it's only 1.5 Billion now....still a shit load of money per man.....

 

[Jsup]

I have been in the IBEW 30 years. Our pension is self funded, and has NEVER asked for a taxpayer dime.
I do NOT get paid holidays and vacations. I get paid for when I work, and get ZERO when off work. 1/2 of my pay raises go towards rising medical benefits. If I do not work 120 hrs a month, I get ZERO medical. When we retire, we get Health coverage for 6 months, not life.
These are FACTS, not BS propaganda.
Your FACTS are MYTHS to me.
My pension is based on how many hours I have worked, PERIOD. More hours contributed, more monthly benefit earned. It's every bit MY money as my SS contributions.(You know, the one our Govt. borrows from).

I thought we were talking in the context of UAW and GM. They get benes for life, and the rest of what I mention.

My FIL was in a union, he worked the docks in Elizabeth, NJ. Had his pension stolen, and yes, the taxpayer does back your pension. If your pension money gets stolen, or down the toilet, guess who gets to pay?:yahoo:

The UAW wages account for approximately 3% of the cost of a car. Nothing to do with the big picture at all.

As for your FIL, I am not sure about the Longshoreman union at all. News to me about the bailout.

Look, I can see the stigma we face every day. Some IS true, some is not, and some is LONG gone and the stigma carrys on.
A worker living in America needs X dollars to survive. A worker in a 3rd world country needs less, and therefore makes less. Manufacturing is moving there claiming "unions killed us." However, quality has gone to shit, and the imported crap costs the SAME. Where did the money go? Wall street, via the Cayman Islands.LOL

:thumbs:


(10 characters

Fair enough....

But the economy is changing. I say export screwing heads on barbie dolls out to a third world country.

It always works that way. Ask the typewriter repairman and buggy whip guys.

Nothing wrong with exporting low end jobs out the door, helps the economy grow.

 

[big2bird]

I have been in the IBEW 30 years. Our pension is self funded, and has NEVER asked for a taxpayer dime.
I do NOT get paid holidays and vacations. I get paid for when I work, and get ZERO when off work. 1/2 of my pay raises go towards rising medical benefits. If I do not work 120 hrs a month, I get ZERO medical. When we retire, we get Health coverage for 6 months, not life.
These are FACTS, not BS propaganda.
Your FACTS are MYTHS to me.
My pension is based on how many hours I have worked, PERIOD. More hours contributed, more monthly benefit earned. It's every bit MY money as my SS contributions.(You know, the one our Govt. borrows from).

I thought we were talking in the context of UAW and GM. They get benes for life, and the rest of what I mention.

My FIL was in a union, he worked the docks in Elizabeth, NJ. Had his pension stolen, and yes, the taxpayer does back your pension. If your pension money gets stolen, or down the toilet, guess who gets to pay?:yahoo:

The UAW wages account for approximately 3% of the cost of a car. Nothing to do with the big picture at all.

As for your FIL, I am not sure about the Longshoreman union at all. News to me about the bailout.

Look, I can see the stigma we face every day. Some IS true, some is not, and some is LONG gone and the stigma carrys on.
A worker living in America needs X dollars to survive. A worker in a 3rd world country needs less, and therefore makes less. Manufacturing is moving there claiming "unions killed us." However, quality has gone to shit, and the imported crap costs the SAME. Where did the money go? Wall street, via the Cayman Islands.LOL

:thumbs:


(10 characters

Fair enough....

But the economy is changing. I say export screwing heads on barbie dolls out to a third world country.

It always works that way. Ask the typewriter repairman and buggy whip guys.

Nothing wrong with exporting low end jobs out the door, helps the economy grow.

Mattel closed it's LA plant long ago, and sent them all to Mexico. Of course, that savings was passed onto the consumer. LOL

The factorys in northern Mexico was meant to lower costs, and help them grow economically. All it did was transfer the toxic wastes to Mexico, where their pollution rate is astronomical. Immigrants don't even cross the Rio Grande at night anymore due to acid burns on their skin from the water.. How sad is that?

 

[mrvette]

The factorys in northern Mexico was meant to lower costs, and help them grow economically. All it did was transfer the toxic wastes to Mexico, where their pollution rate is astronomical. Immigrants don't even cross the Rio Grande at night anymore due to acid burns on their skin from the water.. How sad is that?

Well that's ONE way to keep the illegals out....:devil:

Acid in the river?? seems like a waste to me....gotta be some worth to the chemicals....I would think....

 

[Jsup]

Unions negotiate the wage thru collective bargaining. Believe it or not, I have had pay cuts and lost some benefits thru the years. When work is good, we get raises. When work is slow, we give concessions. Putting companies out of business is not in our best interest.

Well, see, that right there is part of the problem I have. A job is worth what it's worth and has no bearing on company profitability. Period. Now, if the company chooses to profit share, that's one thing, but to make it part of the deal, that's another.

Supply and demand. Economics 101

Market wages, I agree. When the union sets the wage, it's not a market wage, and it's never lower.

As stated earlier in this thread I have seen reported that GM pays UAW $75 an hour loaded, where Toyota, Honda non union shops are paying $38 ish.

So clearly, the market wage is closer to $38 than $75.

 

[big2bird]

The factorys in northern Mexico was meant to lower costs, and help them grow economically. All it did was transfer the toxic wastes to Mexico, where their pollution rate is astronomical. Immigrants don't even cross the Rio Grande at night anymore due to acid burns on their skin from the water.. How sad is that?

Well that's ONE way to keep the illegals out....:devil:

Acid in the river?? seems like a waste to me....gotta be some worth to the chemicals....I would think....

It's nut's Gene. EPA mandates, which I believe in the LONG run to be necessary, have moved "dirt" manufacturing to 3rd world countries who desperately needed the economic growth. Now, instead of keeping manufacturing here and dealing with it, it has moved to these countries where EPA is non existent. Now, pollution is a WORLD WIDE problem. China is just now wealthy and savey enough to realise it, and is starting to do something about it. Costs will go up, and the playing field will eventually level itself out. Hopefully, before the own us.

 

[Jsup]

Mattel closed it's LA plant long ago, and sent them all to Mexico. Of course, that savings was passed onto the consumer. LOL

The factorys in northern Mexico was meant to lower costs, and help them grow economically. All it did was transfer the toxic wastes to Mexico, where their pollution rate is astronomical. Immigrants don't even cross the Rio Grande at night anymore due to acid burns on their skin from the water.. How sad is that?

Why should they pass savings to the customer?

If I owned Mattel, I'd see the product at a market price and try to make as much money as possible.

Isn't that why companies exist? Companies don't exist to give people's job. In your retirement do you have stock in companies who do it for profit or do it for fun and altruistic reasons?

People start businesses to make money, that's why capitalism works, take that away, and you will stagnate the economy.

 

[big2bird]

Unions negotiate the wage thru collective bargaining. Believe it or not, I have had pay cuts and lost some benefits thru the years. When work is good, we get raises. When work is slow, we give concessions. Putting companies out of business is not in our best interest.

Well, see, that right there is part of the problem I have. A job is worth what it's worth and has no bearing on company profitability. Period. Now, if the company chooses to profit share, that's one thing, but to make it part of the deal, that's another.

Supply and demand. Economics 101

Market wages, I agree. When the union sets the wage, it's not a market wage, and it's never lower. (Not true at all)

As stated earlier in this thread I have seen reported that GM pays UAW $75 an hour loaded, where Toyota, Honda non union shops are paying $38 ish.

So clearly, the market wage is closer to $38 than $75.

UAW wages are about $28 plus $10 benies. About $38.00 total. That $75 hr figure is totally biased, by playing with the numbers. It's BS.

 

[Jsup]

The factorys in northern Mexico was meant to lower costs, and help them grow economically. All it did was transfer the toxic wastes to Mexico, where their pollution rate is astronomical. Immigrants don't even cross the Rio Grande at night anymore due to acid burns on their skin from the water.. How sad is that?

Well that's ONE way to keep the illegals out....:devil:

Acid in the river?? seems like a waste to me....gotta be some worth to the chemicals....I would think....

It's nut's Gene. EPA mandates, which I believe in the LONG run to be necessary, have moved "dirt" manufacturing to 3rd world countries who desperately needed the economic growth. Now, instead of keeping manufacturing here and dealing with it, it has moved to these countries where EPA is non existent. Now, pollution is a WORLD WIDE problem. China is just now wealthy and savey enough to realise it, and is starting to do something about it. Costs will go up, and the playing field will eventually level itself out. Hopefully, before the own us.

Now don't get me wrong, I have two kids, and I am all in favor of clean air, dirt, and water. Very strongly too.

However, I think a lot of the regulation is hype.

Ever see the Pen and Teller Di-Oxy-Monoxide skit?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw[/ame]

 

[mrvette]

Unions negotiate the wage thru collective bargaining. Believe it or not, I have had pay cuts and lost some benefits thru the years. When work is good, we get raises. When work is slow, we give concessions. Putting companies out of business is not in our best interest.

Well, see, that right there is part of the problem I have. A job is worth what it's worth and has no bearing on company profitability. Period. Now, if the company chooses to profit share, that's one thing, but to make it part of the deal, that's another.

Supply and demand. Economics 101

Market wages, I agree. When the union sets the wage, it's not a market wage, and it's never lower.

As stated earlier in this thread I have seen reported that GM pays UAW $75 an hour loaded, where Toyota, Honda non union shops are paying $38 ish.

So clearly, the market wage is closer to $38 than $75.

But yet you look at a Alabama house and i'ts only 50 grand for a palace and a shack costs like a Alabama mansion up north, not to mention the taxes and heating costs, screw the a/c bills in summer....

then we can go to GM in California there with Toy in that plant...paying UAW wages, i"M sure....buy a house anywhere in Ca. for a mear 75 bux/hour....ain't happening....

Shit, I sold my shack in the DC burbs for 165 grand...know I could have had a house on the water here for THAT.....but not ME, should have, really...be far better off today, given the REST of the sordid story....:cussing:

 

[big2bird]

Isn't that why companies exist? Companies don't exist to give people's job.

Back in 1919 or so, Henry Ford, a BIG TIME union hater announced the $5.00 a day wage. UNHEARD of back when the average wage was $2.00 a day. When asked why, he said the employees should make enough to buy HIS cars. The lowest price for a Model T Ford was $295 in 1923. That was 12 weeks gross pay. Can you buy a car with 3 months gross pay now?
In 1979 when I started, I could buy a car with 6 months gross. Now, it's nuts. I have to buy used cars. Therefore, I cannot SUPPORT the American system/dream. How sad is that?

 

[Jsup]

But yet you look at a Alabama house and i'ts only 50 grand for a palace and a shack costs like a Alabama mansion up north, not to mention the taxes and heating costs, screw the a/c bills in summer....

then we can go to GM in California there with Toy in that plant...paying UAW wages, i"M sure....buy a house anywhere in Ca. for a mear 75 bux/hour....ain't happening....

Shit, I sold my shack in the DC burbs for 165 grand...know I could have had a house on the water here for THAT.....but not ME, should have, really...be far better off today, given the REST of the sordid story....:cussing:

Yes, cost of living is a factor, however, the job worth $38 in Peoria isn't worth $90 because it's in CA....

 

[Jsup]

Isn't that why companies exist? Companies don't exist to give people's job.

Back in 1919 or so, Henry Ford, a BIG TIME union hater announced the $5.00 a day wage. UNHEARD of back when the average wage was $2.00 a day. When asked why, he said the employees should make enough to buy HIS cars. The lowest price for a Model T Ford was $295 in 1923. That was 12 weeks gross pay. Can you buy a car with 3 months gross pay now?
In 1979 when I started, I could buy a car with 6 months gross. Now, it's nuts. I have to buy used cars. Therefore, I cannot SUPPORT the American system/dream. How sad is that?

I can buy a car with 3 months gross pay, yes. But I think you made the point, Ford did it without a union gun to his head, and the other guys had to come up with more.

If you're a good worker, the money will find you. I believe that the strongest union supporters tend to have weak self image or lack confidence. Why you ask? Because it is there opinion that if not for the union, they'd be living on the street. What does that sound like to you?

 

[mrvette]

Isn't that why companies exist? Companies don't exist to give people's job.

Back in 1919 or so, Henry Ford, a BIG TIME union hater announced the $5.00 a day wage. UNHEARD of back when the average wage was $2.00 a day. When asked why, he said the employees should make enough to buy HIS cars. The lowest price for a Model T Ford was $295 in 1923. That was 12 weeks gross pay. Can you buy a car with 3 months gross pay now?
In 1979 when I started, I could buy a car with 6 months gross. Now, it's nuts. I have to buy used cars. Therefore, I cannot SUPPORT the American system/dream. How sad is that?

My last new car was '87....a Dodge shadow ES 2.2 turbo 5 speed stick 4 dr.....the ex got it in the divorce....
traded on a fucking MINI van a few months later....figgers....

Linda bought her one and ONLY new car in '99, the Escort I put a engine in a year ago....

it's all we will EVER have for cars is what we have now, barring a wreck, I too old/ill health to fix em, I too old to drive either.....

Leaving my '72 to my son, who is co title on it....

:thumbs:

 

[big_G]

I have been in the IBEW 30 years. Our pension is self funded, and has NEVER asked for a taxpayer dime.
I do NOT get paid holidays and vacations. I get paid for when I work, and get ZERO when off work. 1/2 of my pay raises go towards rising medical benefits. If I do not work 120 hrs a month, I get ZERO medical. When we retire, we get Health coverage for 6 months, not life.
These are FACTS, not BS propaganda.
Your FACTS are MYTHS to me.
My pension is based on how many hours I have worked, PERIOD. More hours contributed, more monthly benefit earned. It's every bit MY money as my SS contributions.(You know, the one our Govt. borrows from).

I thought we were talking in the context of UAW and GM. They get benes for life, and the rest of what I mention.

My FIL was in a union, he worked the docks in Elizabeth, NJ. Had his pension stolen, and yes, the taxpayer does back your pension. If your pension money gets stolen, or down the toilet, guess who gets to pay?:yahoo:

The UAW wages account for approximately 3% of the cost of a car. Nothing to do with the big picture at all.

As for your FIL, I am not sure about the Longshoreman union at all. News to me about the bailout.

Look, I can see the stigma we face every day. Some IS true, some is not, and some is LONG gone and the stigma carrys on.
A worker living in America needs X dollars to survive. A worker in a 3rd world country needs less, and therefore makes less. Manufacturing is moving there claiming "unions killed us." However, quality has gone to shit, and the imported crap costs the SAME. Where did the money go? Wall street, via the Cayman Islands.LOL

Which stigma? American cars are junk or that the average auto-worker gets paid (salary and bennies) too much?

I think you mean they are coming here (Honda, Mitsubishi, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Volkswagen, Toyota, Mazda etc).

 

[big2bird]

I think you mean they are coming here (Honda, Mitsubishi, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Volkswagen, Toyota, Mazda etc).

THEY are bulding here because of loop holes in import taxes, incentives from poor states, and land is CHEAP in the southeast compared to Japan, Germany.

We do the same thing. The Buick Regal is Chinas largest selling American Car. It's made THERE.

 

[big_G]

I think you mean they are coming here (Honda, Mitsubishi, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Volkswagen, Toyota, Mazda etc).

THEY are bulding here because of loop holes in import taxes, incentives from poor states, and land is CHEAP in the southeast compared to Japan, Germany.

We do the same thing. The Buick Regal is Chinas largest selling American Car. It's made THERE.

You missed my point...lol. I was implying that the big 3 can't make it, but the foreign auto companies located in the USA can. The difference....no unions.

 

[big2bird]

You missed my point...lol. I was implying that the big 3 can't make it, but the foreign auto companies located in the USA can. The difference....no unions.

IF you believe that to be THE only difference, then you are misinformed.:thumbs:

 

[big2bird]

For YEARS, the UAW built American cars. The BIG 3 made money, the people bought drove them, and everyone was happy. Nobody ever bitched/used the excuse about union labor. The BIG 3 mentality got beat at their own game by foreign companies, and instead of fessing up, they blame it on the unions. Toyota and Honda's R&D is 10 times our expense. THEY re INVEST in their own companies. They worry about the FUTURE, not immediate gratification/profit. They LEARN from their mistakes, and our companies are slow to resopond, and prefer the status quo. It's PHILOSOPHY that is killing the BIG 3, not 1% additional labor cost. That's propaganda BS.

 

[big_G]

You missed my point...lol. I was implying that the big 3 can't make it, but the foreign auto companies located in the USA can. The difference....no unions.

IF you believe that to be THE only difference, then you are misinformed.:thumbs:

Certainly not the only difference, but a major one, IMO. Granted, it costs less to run a plant in Georgia than Michigan, but who gets the blame there?. The taxes, poor schools, high crime rate in Detroit make it an unattractive location for a new auto plant. So the new plants go to the states with low operating costs and, of course, "right to work" non-union states. The big 3 should take notes.