Ground fault tracing

73 Mike

73 Mike

I'll drive it someday
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
713
Location
Boston, MA
Not car related but electrical. Since there isn't a hot tub section, I thought this was better than OT.

Every summer, I shut down and drain my hot tub. We don't use it much in those months and it costs me almost as much to heat then as in winter. Every fall, I refill it and spend some time trying to restart it. The problem is that the ground fault fuse keeps tripping. Typically, I disconnect all of the accessories from the control panel, run a heater/fan on the panel for a period of time and then I can coax it back on. Once it's running, the heat generated within the control panel keeps it quite happy. This year is different.

I just can't seem to get the ground fault to stop tripping. I've tried to isolate the issue and believe it is within the panel itself. Using my sophisticated knowledge of electronics (one step better than using a wet finger to trace hot wires), I'm fairly sure that the problem lies either in the panel circuits or the remote control panel. My problem and question is I don't really know how to chase a ground fault.

Any tips or suggestions?
 
Step #1- Call Da Bird.

Step #2 - check resistance between the motor on the tub and ground, then to the panel. Then check each leg of the motor to ground.
 
TimAT said:
Step #1- Call Da Bird.

Step #2 - check resistance between the motor on the tub and ground, then to the panel. Then check each leg of the motor to ground.
Click to expand...

Be a LONG way for DaBird to do a service call....

only thing I can suggest is to take off ALL the cover panels with the breaker in the OFF position...and look around for anything that even remotely resembles corroded metal....and shoot it with WD40, and then stroke it down with a stiff paint brush.....

If that don't cure it....GET A PRO....time to NOT fuck around.....

I used to have a outdoor HT and dumped it for a indoor remodel....run the thing when I feel like it....expensive to keep 500 gallons hot in even FLORIDA winters....that steady drag on the bux .....

Best of luck,
 
Thanks for the thoughts guys. I'll call Bird if I have a specific question. Just didn't want to bother him while I stand out there and stare at it. I need to get him and Mrs. Bird up here anyways.

Considering the Voltage and current going through the panel, it's a pretty hokey setup. Condensation has always been an issue which is why I'm not hugely concerned about a shock hazard. I've already replaced one control unit due to corrosion. Clearly the ground fault is working properly since I have so much trouble getting it started each season.
 
Mike, your last post got me thinking about my old HT....and having to replace the thermostat and rewire the thing to control a small 24 volt transformer to a added in contactor for the higher voltages....

I forget the exact thing, but Bird should know from what I said....in my old tub the heater/motor was controlled by a stat in one side of the 220 volt line....and so it failed under the high current needs....

I had to essentially re engineer it....all sensors and controls ran off 24 volts and only the motors/heater saw 220 line voltage...

:clobbered:
 
Definately all of the motors are powered by relays. Haven't checked the voltage of the control circuits.
 
73 Mike said:
Definately all of the motors are powered by relays. Haven't checked the voltage of the control circuits.
Click to expand...

Mine was a Vita Spa....huge in this region....but maybe 15 y/o when I sold it...owned for like 5 years....

can't help what with other makers....

:goodevil:
 
Okay, just saw this, let's start with how they work.
You will notice a GFCI breaker is the only kind where the nuetral wire as well as the hot wire for a circuit lands on the breaker.
That is because inside, there is a "zero sequence coupler" sensor through which BOTH the hot and nuetral current passes.
The sesor compares, "Power out, power in", and when there is a differential, the sensor field voltage increases, and it trips the breaker.
Now, these sensitive critters will falsely trip with age, and sometimes merely replacing them solves it. (Ask Josh)
If it is NOT defective, it is telling you current is leaking , and returning via ground or other means, and not the assigned nuetral wire path, thereby balancing the sensor reading.
Just like a carbon track in a dizzy cap, this can be corrosion, or a decvaying dielectric connection, or water, or ......
Since you go thru this everyyear, I would replace the breaker first. Cheapest fix for the novice.
If that doesn't work, call me. :nuts:


.
 
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If you have the multfunction sequential electronic controls, those are a disaster.
Always cause problems.
If that ends up being the problem, you can dump that and get a simpler foolproof setup. Mines's worked flawlessly for 20 years.

BTW, hotubs are to be used everyday just before bedtime, sleep like a baby and forget the viagra.:banghead:
 
Thanks guys. Bird, I'll try changing the GFI on Saturday (when I can see). Only thing I have to worry about is rain. I have a history with 220V and wet feet that I don't care to repeat. I'll report back after that.
 
73 Mike said:
Thanks guys. Bird, I'll try changing the GFI on Saturday (when I can see). Only thing I have to worry about is rain. I have a history with 220V and wet feet that I don't care to repeat. I'll report back after that.
Click to expand...

:shocking::shocking::search:

History repeats itself....watch it man....:bomb::sick:
 
mrvette said:
73 Mike said:
Thanks guys. Bird, I'll try changing the GFI on Saturday (when I can see). Only thing I have to worry about is rain. I have a history with 220V and wet feet that I don't care to repeat. I'll report back after that.
Click to expand...

:shocking::shocking::search:

History repeats itself....watch it man....:bomb::sick:
Click to expand...

Shut off the main feeding the panel
 
When you take down the Christmas lights this year drape them around in your electrical control boxes. The minute wattage is enough to drive off the moisture and clear your ground faults.

When I was an underground electrician in the Bunker Hill mines we had one or two 100 Watt bulbs in every electrical panel of any kind. We never went anywhere without a bag of bulbs to replace burnt ones wherever we saw them.
 
GT6Steve said:
When you take down the Christmas lights this year drape them around in your electrical control boxes. The minute wattage is enough to drive off the moisture and clear your ground faults.

When I was an underground electrician in the Bunker Hill mines we had one or two 100 Watt bulbs in every electrical panel of any kind. We never went anywhere without a bag of bulbs to replace burnt ones wherever we saw them.
Click to expand...

Explain further, please....!
 
Every light bulb is a minute heat source that collectively adds up to drive off the moisture. In the mine we did it with one or two 100 Watt lamps. Very hot! For his hot tub the small bulbs shoved in around the electrics may well supply enough warmth to dry it out (slowly of course) without the risk of a broken lamp and exposed voltage resultant.

Kind of like a cheap heat strip....
 
Oh, OK I know what you mean. I used to put a 100 watt bulb under the motorcycle which was wrapped in horse blankets & a tarp so it would be easier to start on winter mornings. (Then I got a truck...)
 
JPhil said:
Oh, OK I know what you mean. I used to put a 100 watt bulb under the motorcycle which was wrapped in horse blankets & a tarp so it would be easier to start on winter mornings. (Then I got a truck...)
Click to expand...

Yeah...a light bulb is commonly used in gun safes to counter moisture and potential rust on firearms. I don't think more than a 40 watt is required, so an electrical panel volume would require less. Be sure it is incandescent and not LED.
 
Quick update. I changed the GFCI breaker and that took care of the problem. Snapped on and started right up. I have a bad pressure sensor but that's no more than an inconvenience as it won't cycle daily until I replace it. I can run the pump on high and the heater and accesories work fine too.

Thanks all.

One interesting thing to note. I replaced the GFCI based on the fuse panel which is 2 X 30 AMP. Turns out the GFCI that was bad was 2 X 50 AMP. Is this correct? Seems odd that you'd put a larger GFCI that fuse.
 
73 Mike said:
Quick update. I changed the GFCI breaker and that took care of the problem. Snapped on and started right up. I have a bad pressure sensor but that's no more than an inconvenience as it won't cycle daily until I replace it. I can run the pump on high and the heater and accesories work fine too.

Thanks all.

One interesting thing to note. I replaced the GFCI based on the fuse panel which is 2 X 30 AMP. Turns out the GFCI that was bad was 2 X 50 AMP. Is this correct? Seems odd that you'd put a larger GFCI that fuse.
Click to expand...

Long as your hot tub don't blow the NOW 30 amp breaker, leave it alone...you fine, assuming the hot tub works ok for you.....

as I recall, my HT was only a 30 amp breaker.....I going to check the panel now....see if my memory is correct or not.....

well, so much for memory....it was a 50 amp breaker.....


:crap:
 
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