High performance oil systems

turtlevette said:
What are squirters.
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The first piston pin squirters I ever saw came out in rice rocket motorcycles about 20 years ago. About the same time that production bikes were exceeding 12,000 rpm. oiling the upper pin and cooling the piston dome was accomplished by small diameter jets of oil squirting up from the bottoms of the cylinder bores.

I have an 8 quart RR pan with baffles and crank scrapers. It is not good for racing. I could go into a long turn with 80 psi and running a constant rpm through the turn see my oil pressure drop below 40 psi. The cheapest fix is just use http://www.accusump.com/acc_tech_how.html

The accusump is what I bought. I will be testing it June 13 and 14
 
Looks like short of a dry sump that we're all ending up on pretty much the same page here...

Any one out there do an external pump wet sump system, or know any latent pro's and con's of such?

And, what opinions do you guys have about going to the trouble of squirters? When is it necessary/worth it? (Suspect they may be a good idea for something like TT's.)


BTW, thanks to Belgian1979vette for posting the tread. Worthy topic, this.
 
TheSkunkWorks said:
And, what opinions do you guys have about going to the trouble of squirters? When is it necessary/worth it? (Suspect they may be a good idea for something like TT's.)
.
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I believe oil squirter's are only necessary with high end pumps, pumps that pull a great deal of vacuum on a closed system, "closed system" meaning the only vents on the motor aren`t on the motor, there is a vent on the oil tank only...the valve covers are sealed....
redvetracr
 
TheSkunkWorks said:
Looks like short of a dry sump that we're all ending up on pretty much the same page here...

Any one out there do an external pump wet sump system, or know any latent pro's and con's of such?

And, what opinions do you guys have about going to the trouble of squirters? When is it necessary/worth it? (Suspect they may be a good idea for something like TT's.)


BTW, thanks to Belgian1979vette for posting the tread. Worthy topic, this.
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The above is right. Dry sump would be a bullitproof system. However I currently only see one way of mounting the pump and that is removing the power steering pump and moving that one on the right cylinder bank and putting a dry sump in its place.
That would still leave us with the problem of fitting the large oil tanks. In the interior is out of the question (certainly on pre 78 models) because of the heat and place they take. I do not see where else it could be put.
Most of these tanks are somewhere between 15 and 20" long and some 10" thick.

I would appreciate Gkulls experience with long turns and the accusump. An accusump could be a lot easier mounted since you can mount it horizontally.
 
redvetracr said:
I believe oil squirter's are only necessary with high end pumps, pumps that pull a great deal of vacuum on a closed system, "closed system" meaning the only vents on the motor aren`t on the motor, there is a vent on the oil tank only...the valve covers are sealed....
redvetracr
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Are you saying that all dry sumps should have a completly sealed engine ? Then indeed it would be necessary to have a squirter.
 
Belgian1979vette said:
Are you saying that all dry sumps should have a completly sealed engine ? Then indeed it would be necessary to have a squirter.
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No, I am saying for maximum hp gain from a dry sump system the engine should be sealed, you can run a sealed motor without squirters. My motor is NOT sealed as I have a 4 stage Stock Car Products pump certainly adequate but far from "high end", look at Daily pumps if you want to see the ultimate in dry sump pumps...I run a single -12 hose from the valve cover to the tank and a -16 from the tank to a vent can. My tank is mounted in the area behind the passenger seat, I wouldn`t suggest anything less than a 3 gallon tank.
redvetracr
 
Belgian1979vette said:
I would appreciate Gkulls experience with long turns and the accusump. An accusump could be a lot easier mounted since you can mount it horizontally.
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At the race shop where I work they have retrofitted several historic race cars with dry sump. It is not easy on Vettes and cars like our Vettes. They had to pull the motor out and notch and regusset the frame rail.

The accusump is a common sight at the road racing track on lower budget cars like mine.
 
Belgian1979vette said:
The above is right. Dry sump would be a bullitproof system. However I currently only see one way of mounting the pump and that is removing the power steering pump and moving that one on the right cylinder bank and putting a dry sump in its place.
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look at a NASCAR racer, the power steering pump is relocated up to the LH head with a remote reservoir, and notching the frame is a piece of cake.
redvetracr
 
redvetracr said:
look at a NASCAR racer, the power steering pump is relocated up to the LH head with a remote reservoir, and notching the frame is a piece of cake.
redvetracr
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Yes, piece of cake can mean allot of things....... From start to finish maybe 40 man hours to convert to dry sump. If your time is free the hp gained only costs about $100 per hp. That is using conservative numbers like $2500 and 25 hp gained @ 18 inches of vacuum by the dry sump
 
Belgian1979vette said:
Hp gain is not the real purpose of a dry sump imo, reliability and protection of the engine is.
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exactly,

Who do we know that has a car and the skills to corner hard enough for long enough to need a dry sump.

redvet
racervet

i can't think of any others. The rest of us are romper room racers with fisher price pedalcars.:pprrtt:
 
gkull said:
Yes, piece of cake can mean allot of things....... From start to finish maybe 40 man hours to convert to dry sump. If your time is free the hp gained only costs about $100 per hp. That is using conservative numbers like $2500 and 25 hp gained @ 18 inches of vacuum by the dry sump
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RE-READ my post...I said "notching the frame is a piece of cake"....it might take 40 hours if your including R&R of the engine to modify it for a drysump and mounting an oil pan but hanging the tank, lines, and screen filter doesn`t take 40 hours (the cooler should already be there)....maybe they are billing the "checkbook racers" for 40 hours but doing A Corvette is pretty straight forward IF one knows what he is doing and what parts to buy the first time....come to think of it the whole job is a piece of cake...if you know what you are doing.
redvetracr
 
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Belgian1979vette said:
Hp gain is not the real purpose of a dry sump imo, reliability and protection of the engine is.
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Dry sump oiling is no longer a luxury on a road coarse it`s a necessity, I wouldn`t dream of racing a car without one. When every horsepower counts unlocking the horsepower loss from parasitic drag becomes very important. If the horsepower is there why not unlock it?
redvetracr

PS: there was a show on the Speed channel where they went to the Corvette plant to document the build of a new ZO-6, part of the show was on a test track where the measured "G`s" they showed a U shaped tube partly filled with colored water, it didn`t take cornering much to move all that water up the side of the U and away from the center (where your oil pickup would be)....
 
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redvetracr said:
RE-READ my post...I said "notching the frame is a piece of cake"....it might take 40 hours if your including R&R of the engine to modify it for a drysump and mounting an oil pan but hanging the tank, lines, and screen filter doesn`t take 40 hours (the cooler should already be there)....maybe they are billing the "checkbook racers" for 40 hours but doing A Corvette is pretty straight forward IF one knows what he is doing and what parts to buy the first time....come to think of it the whole job is a piece of cake...if you know what you are doing.
redvetracr
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I'd have to ask how many hours it took to do the two 1964 Bizzarini Iso Grifo Berlinetta 5300 Corsa (Grifo AC3 body and Corvette 327 cu in (5,360 cc) engine). and the two C-2 Vettes. They did a beautiful job on every one of them.

They didn't have an example to look at. I just pulled 40 man hours out of a hat. I was including the hours to R&R the motor.

I've given up on Racing my Vette. To run three 30 minute sessions (one day of SCCA racing) cost me about $850 each and every day. My front and rear tires last two race days. The tires are about $1200 mounted and balanced, $200 entry fee each day, $100 in race gas and fluids.
 
Yellow73SB said:
Those r6's should definately be lasting longer than 3 30 minute sessions
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We have a very abrasive track. I even bought the optional factory heat cycled to make them last longer. As speed goes up tires go much faster. It's not just me I was talking to some of the other guys in the pits who were all in C-6 Z06s and they said they were getting two days out of their tire using 315 fronts and 335 rears
 
gkull said:
I'd have to ask how many hours it took to do the two 1964 Bizzarini Iso Grifo Berlinetta 5300 Corsa (Grifo AC3 body and Corvette 327 cu in (5,360 cc) engine). and the two C-2 Vettes. They did a beautiful job on every one of them.

They didn't have an example to look at. I just pulled 40 man hours out of a hat. I was including the hours to R&R the motor.
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except that by using a Bizzarini Iso Grifo instead of a standard Corvette race car for your comparison you are comparing apples to oranges.....dry sump oiling is actually pretty simple once you understand what all the parts do.
redvetracr
 
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