Minor Epiphany.....

[Jsup]

So I'm watching Speed this morning and Hot Rod TV show is on in the background. I don't really WATCH TV, just on in the background.

Anyway, there was a feature of So Cal Custom, Billy Gibbons, of ZZ Top was featured as well as the guys from So Cal Custom.

Something hit me listening to these guys, it was about the "car". They were saying "here's a three window coop, which is different than this other three window coupe, which is different than this three window coupe. They went into the details about how they were different.

At the end they had a 57 TBird that they re shaped the hood and made some minor cosmetic changes. Then again, back the the entirety of the car. It was always about the car. They did talk about the custom stuff, but if you can buy it off the shelf, it was never mentioned.

These legends, people who spend big money on big cars, talked about the CAR and how the unique aspects come together to create a unique vehicle. There were Rousche engines sitting in the background, there were Hillborn intakes shown. But none of them talked about ANY of that. It was all about the CAR. The most mention was "how about a 321 small block"...They spoke about the uniqueness of the package. Custom built rims that looked as if they could have been factory for example.

So I think the epiphany I had is that too many people like to talk about the PARTS in the car, and not the car itself. I think that's what gives Corvette guys a stereotype. NOTE: I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT HERE which is why I feel safe posting this. I have seen it to an extreme extent on other Corvette "realted" Forums where many believe they are Gurus.

Too many guys like to talk about "hey look at my shiny part that I picked from a catalog". I think those people can take a page from the old hotrodders book. Unique is in the vehicle, not in the parts. If that makes sense. Even if it's all stock, there's something unique about it. The work that was put into it to get it there, etc....

Tell me about the car, tell me about the mods that make it unique, not about the mods themselves. Do I make sense or is my hangover getting to me?

 

[73 Mike]

That's an interesting observation. Kind of heavy for early on a Saturday morning. I think I'll try to pay attention to this for a little while as I read posts.

 

[JPhil]

I think I know what you mean. To me, the parts should enhance the whole. If a fancy part stands out by itself, it's just a distraction. You should be able to look at the whole vehicle (in most of my experience, it has been motorcycles) and say, wow that bike just looks great. Then when you look closer you go Ah! look at this, and this! Oh, gee, see this? But they should all blend together to make a whole, rather than a collection of individual pieces stuck together. Personally, I do not want fancy wheels on my car. The overall shape of the car is so pure & pleasing, extravagant wheels would be a distraction, interrupting the smooth flow of the eye as it travels across it. I prefer my simple grey rally wheels with baby moons & no trim rings. They enhance the idea of the function of the car as a performer rather than a glittering ego queen.
To me, function is beauty. If you want to see my 'custom' work, you will have to look for it because it is definately not 'in your face'.

 

[1Michel]

it probably comes with what some can afford.

The presentation of the toy wont be the same.
Ex, those guys can afford (so-cal or any big TV builder) cand afford pretty much what they want so theyll talk about the whole project.

Now some home hot rodder no matter what kind of car, most of the time budget will be a big issue.
So he just bought,made or installed a new part for his car (motor, new suspension, new brakes etc) that he waited a ling time to get because he had to build up the money week by week.
most of the times it's an ongoing project going on for years and he's doing it piece by piece.
So he wont talk too much about the car since it's not finished but about the parts he just put in.
Also brand name will be important,
Foose, Coddington or Barry White uses MSD ignition? so I have to get MSD to look kool.

 

[Jsup]

I think I know what you mean. To me, the parts should enhance the whole. If a fancy part stands out by itself, it's just a distraction. You should be able to look at the whole vehicle (in most of my experience, it has been motorcycles) and say, wow that bike just looks great. Then when you look closer you go Ah! look at this, and this! Oh, gee, see this? But they should all blend together to make a whole, rather than a collection of individual pieces stuck together. Personally, I do not want fancy wheels on my car. The overall shape of the car is so pure & pleasing, extravagant wheels would be a distraction, interrupting the smooth flow of the eye as it travels across it. I prefer my simple grey rally wheels with baby moons & no trim rings. They enhance the idea of the function of the car as a performer rather than a glittering ego queen.
To me, function is beauty. If you want to see my 'custom' work, you will have to look for it because it is definately not 'in your face'.

Yes, good indication of where I was going. When you get close to a vehicle and say "ah, that's unique"...that's what's cool. People say "check out my car" not "check out my shiny part" big difference.

Honestly, I'm not so sure I know what I mean, just struck me funny.

 

[Jsup]

it probably comes with what some can afford.

I don't believe that.

The presentation of the toy wont be the same.
Ex, those guys can afford (so-cal or any big TV builder) cand afford pretty much what they want so theyll talk about the whole project.

True, however, they aren't going to feature joe car builder in his garage for 3 years. It's a TV show with a sponsor.

Now some home hot rodder no matter what kind of car, most of the time budget will be a big issue.
So he just bought,made or installed a new part for his car (motor, new suspension, new brakes etc) that he waited a ling time to get because he had to build up the money week by week.
most of the times it's an ongoing project going on for years and he's doing it piece by piece.

True, however, in terms of language, I think it's all in the vision. Some people have a vision regardless of time and budget, and they talk about the VISION as opposed to talking about the parts that go into it. At the end of the day, again regardless of time and budget, it's a question if the vision was fulfilled. I think there is a difference in a vision that says "look at all my cool parts" and here's my vision and how I"m fulfilling it.

Vision isn't having a collection of cool parts. See where I'm going. Too many Corvette guys are focused on putting together cool parts and have very little vision after the collection of parts. That's what gives them a bad name. That vision can be a stock restall or a complete custom.

So he wont talk too much about the car since it's not finished but about the parts he just put in.

See above, vision vs. parts. If you say "I purchased these parts look how great they are" That's the "corvette stereotype". If you say "I picked up some material to "fill in stage of vision here" that's different.

Also brand name will be important,
Foose, Coddington or Barry White uses MSD ignition? so I have to get MSD to look kool.

Perhaps, and there is a lot of that. The question is weather or not you FOCUS on specifically that. I guess it goes to motivation of why your buying the parts and the desire of telling your friends you own the parts instead of thinking this through up front regardless of parts and talk about how each step gets closer to the final vision of the car.

In this example there's also a difference between saying "how do I set up an MSD ignition" and "look at my MSD ignition". Again, the former is a part of fulfilling the vision, the latter is talking about cool parts.

I am probably completely insane, so that's my brain drizzle for today.

 

[BBShark]

I think you see this with pretty much every hobby but none are worse than automotive. People read Hot Rod and see how-to articles that are poorly disguised advertisements for bolt on aftermarket parts. I would love to see a magazine that chronicles the "build" of a car. The problem is, there is nothing to sell, no money for the magazine.

The bolt on aftermarket will always rule what is seen in magazines.

John, you play guitar so you have probably seen this. Guitar Player magazine does and article on Joe X, in the article Joe X says that he uses such and such kind of amplifier. People rush to buy. Why? If most of the people who rushed out to buy the product were honest with themselves, they would say that they are buying it because:

"If I have the same gear the Joe X has, I could play just like him"

I think this is exactly the same thing you see with the car hobby.

 

[mrvette]

Then there are junkyard hotrodders, who enjoy building shit their way, and as little 'name brand bullshit' on it as possible.....

the really PHREAKY part is that in '95 HPPontiac mag published a article about my old tow car because I put DPFI from a junkyard Caddy on it, and it ran like a raped APE, HUGE improvement, once I got it sorted out....TimAT seen the induction, looks like shit, typical home brew project outta some garage, but my shit runs, when it don't is when I get a very high MPPO (marginal propensity to get PISSED OFF)......

PIssed or not, I do it to the extent I can for my own entertainment, I hop on the computer, or cruise nights, for ideas, concepts, and knowledge....

honestly, I feel I learn more than give....

:thumbs::smash:

 

[1Michel]

it probably comes with what some can afford.

I don't believe that.

Oh I dont mean to look down on anybody by saying what he can afford.
But going one piece at a time for a long time you could lose the vision of the car.

Now some home hot rodder no matter what kind of car, most of the time budget will be a big issue.

Vision isn't having a collection of cool parts. See where I'm going. Too many Corvette guys are focused on putting together cool parts and have very little vision after the collection of parts. That's what gives them a bad name. That vision can be a stock restall or a complete custom.

See above, vision vs. parts. If you say "I purchased these parts look how great they are" That's the "corvette stereotype".

that could also be said about any hotodder or bikers.

Also brand name will be important,
Foose, Coddington or Barry White uses MSD ignition? so I have to get MSD to look kool.

Perhaps, and there is a lot of that. The question is weather or not you FOCUS on specifically that. I guess it goes to motivation of why your buying the parts and the desire of telling your friends you own the parts instead of thinking this through up front regardless of parts and talk about how each step gets closer to the final vision of the car.

Hummm some will buy a Corvette just to say they have a Corvette.
I know a few and I wouldnt think they have a vision of a car but the status of owning a particular brand and the aura that comes with it. (sorry cant find the words.)

In this example there's also a difference between saying "how do I set up an MSD ignition" and "look at my MSD ignition". Again, the former is a part of fulfilling the vision, the latter is talking about cool parts.

I am probably completely insane, so that's my brain drizzle for today.

I'm getting insane trying to translate and explain and make sure I'm not in the left field LOL

 

[Jsup]

I think you see this with pretty much every hobby but none are worse than automotive. People read Hot Rod and see how-to articles that are poorly disguised advertisements for bolt on aftermarket parts. I would love to see a magazine that chronicles the "build" of a car. The problem is, there is nothing to sell, no money for the magazine.

The bolt on aftermarket will always rule what is seen in magazines.

John, you play guitar so you have probably seen this. Guitar Player magazine does and article on Joe X, in the article Joe X says that he uses such and such kind of amplifier. People rush to buy. Why? If most of the people who rushed out to buy the product were honest with themselves, they would say that they are buying it because:

"If I have the same gear the Joe X has, I could play just like him"

I think this is exactly the same thing you see with the car hobby.

In the guitar world we call those people posers. Perfect analogy. Look at all my fancy crap, can't play note one.

Then tell everyone else they need fancy crap like them. Beacaue without it your playing will suffer.

So again. What's the goal? To have fancy crap you can talk about or to play well?

 

[mrvette]

1Mike, I with you, a slight for instance is a MSD I have in my junk cabinet for some 18? years now, last time it was tried was on my '87 vette, made NO difference in the operation, took it off, it had been used with some Qjet car or other to smooth out the idle....THAT it was good for, I ASSUME the thing was running rich so the extra idle sparks helped burn the fuel.....the thing did me no good on a properly running car.....I didn't start learning about FI untill the early/mid 80's and then only on a fix it basis....

after the divorce, I had more time on my hands so learned it from a performance/hotrodding standpoint...

:smash:

 

[JPhil]

OK, how's this...It comes down to what your true innermost interest is. If it is the performance--the function--of the machine (whatever machine it may be--bicycle, camera, computer, car, etc--or even horses, dogs, music, or crops!) which you are seeking to understand & improve for the sake of the purity of it (& thus how you yourself personally benefit (physically, psychically, whatever) from that--because after all, the particular instrument of self-acknowlegement & 'spiritual' growth can be anything)---then you concentrate your energies on that aspect and disregard the more socially wieghted aspects. (you know--those of us whose idea of the perfect Saturday night is rebuilding an engine out in the garage all alone with the dog lying on the floor by the bench as opposed to those who are out partying & whooping it up).
We get our confirmation of self-worthiness from the acceptance & approval of our peers by a nod, a thoughful "Hmmm. I like that." But we only accept such confirmation from those we respect. A response of "WOOO-HOOO dude! Your car kicks fuckin ASS!!" from somebody on the the street means nothing, whereas a quiet "Runs pretty good, man" from a respected peer is better than a gold medal at the Olympics.

But for other people it is the admiration of 'the masses' they need for self-justification. These are the people who have to have the biggest, the best, the flashiest, the most expensive whatever. They don't have a clue, or not much of a clue, what the reasoning is behind many of the things they do or have, they just know they will get a self-affirming response from many people for having them. The fact that this raving public is also clueless does not matter--it is the ego stroking of public admiration they need. Of course they tend to congregate with like minded people who have the same needs, so they too have their peer group to support them.

I guess the difference is that 'they' seek approval (& regard it as respect) from a mass audience, where guys like me disdain the mass audience and seek only the actual respect of those few for whom we ourselves have respect.

And needless to say, there are varying degrees between both ends of the spectrum in all of us.

So in the end, we all seek the approval of our peers, but different personalities have different requirements to achieve this.

 

[1Michel]

In the guitar world we call those people posers. Perfect analogy. Look at all my fancy crap, can't play note one.

exactly what I meant.
This could be applied to car or bike world or any hobby that will become popular.

 

[1Michel]

So in the end, we all seek the approval of our peers, but different personalities have different requirements to achieve this.

That's maybe some will feel more comfortable in a forum rather than in another, they'll feel more comfrotable where the members are more in the same line of thought.

 

[Jsup]

OK, how's this...It comes down to what your true innermost interest is. If it is the performance--the function--of the machine (whatever machine it may be--bicycle, camera, computer, car, etc--or even horses, dogs, music, or crops!) which you are seeking to understand & improve for the sake of the purity of it (& thus how you yourself personally benefit (physically, psychically, whatever) from that--because after all, the particular instrument of self-acknowlegement & 'spiritual' growth can be anything)---then you concentrate your energies on that aspect and disregard the more socially wieghted aspects. (you know--those of us whose idea of the perfect Saturday night is rebuilding an engine out in the garage all alone with the dog lying on the floor by the bench as opposed to those who are out partying & whooping it up).
We get our confirmation of self-worthiness from the acceptance & approval of our peers by a nod, a thoughful "Hmmm. I like that." But we only accept such confirmation from those we respect. A response of "WOOO-HOOO dude! Your car kicks fuckin ASS!!" from somebody on the the street means nothing, whereas a quiet "Runs pretty good, man" from a respected peer is better than a gold medal at the Olympics.

But for other people it is the admiration of 'the masses' they need for self-justification. These are the people who have to have the biggest, the best, the flashiest, the most expensive whatever. They don't have a clue, or not much of a clue, what the reasoning is behind many of the things they do or have, they just know they will get a self-affirming response from many people for having them. The fact that this raving public is also clueless does not matter--it is the ego stroking of public admiration they need. Of course they tend to congregate with like minded people who have the same needs, so they too have their peer group to support them.

I guess the difference is that 'they' seek approval (& regard it as respect) from a mass audience, where guys like me disdain the mass audience and seek only the actual respect of those few for whom we ourselves have respect.

And needless to say, there are varying degrees between both ends of the spectrum in all of us.

So in the end, we all seek the approval of our peers, but different personalities have different requirements to achieve this.

Great points.

 

[JPhil]

I have infinately more respect for some high-school kid who asks questions & scrounges junkyards and cuts & welds on his car trying to make it run better :wink:, or even some east coast train driver who drives his old beater 500 miles round trip to race it & get his ass whupped every time , than I do for some wealthy egotist who can afford a bunch of cars all of which have all the most expensive parts, prettiest paint jobs, built by the best builders-- no matter how nice, how superior, they are.

I guess what's important to me is how much of one's SELF is put into the car--not how much money.

Seems whenever I go to car or bike shows, I spend as much time wandering around the parking lot looking at the oil-dripping, foo-foo can painted genuine street running vehicles as I do inside looking at the fancy-ass ones on show.

 

[1Michel]

Same here, I like the Burt Munroe type a true hotrodder.

http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/halloffame/hofbiopage.asp?id=381

he didnt care about brand name or what part was popular at a certain time to impress anybody.
Just the god of speed.

 

[Jsup]

I have infinately more respect for some high-school kid who asks questions & scrounges junkyards and cuts & welds on his car trying to make it run better :wink:, or even some east coast train driver who drives his old beater 500 miles round trip to race it & get his ass whupped every time , than I do for some wealthy egotist who can afford a bunch of cars all of which have all the most expensive parts, prettiest paint jobs, built by the best builders-- no matter how nice, how superior, they are.

I guess what's important to me is how much of one's SELF is put into the car--not how much money.

Seems whenever I go to car or bike shows, I spend as much time wandering around the parking lot looking at the oil-dripping, foo-foo can painted genuine street running vehicles as I do inside looking at the fancy-ass ones on show.

I love when the guy with the shiny parts gets his ass handed to him

I think you nailed the difference between the people who build cars and the vision is the car as oppoes to the guy who buys parts and the parts are the point.

 

[1Michel]

I have infinately more respect for some high-school kid who asks questions & scrounges junkyards and cuts & welds on his car trying to make it run better :wink:, or even some east coast train driver who drives his old beater 500 miles round trip to race it & get his ass whupped every time , than I do for some wealthy egotist who can afford a bunch of cars all of which have all the most expensive parts, prettiest paint jobs, built by the best builders-- no matter how nice, how superior, they are.

I guess what's important to me is how much of one's SELF is put into the car--not how much money.

Seems whenever I go to car or bike shows, I spend as much time wandering around the parking lot looking at the oil-dripping, foo-foo can painted genuine street running vehicles as I do inside looking at the fancy-ass ones on show.

Every friday theres a Mustang gathering not far from where I live.
Anywhere between 20 and 50 cars will show up.
Lots of old hotrodders with the car they've been playing with for years and a few kids with cars they also play with.
But some also with theyre brand new Saleen's and Shelys GT500.

Couples of weeks ago, a kid whos a poser with a Saleen, you know the type, bragging about how much the car cost, and the price of the ever so specials wheels he had bought had a flat tire.
Welll he couldn't even change his friggin wheel.
he called a tow truck to come and get his tire changed.

POSER

 

[Jsup]

I have infinately more respect for some high-school kid who asks questions & scrounges junkyards and cuts & welds on his car trying to make it run better :wink:, or even some east coast train driver who drives his old beater 500 miles round trip to race it & get his ass whupped every time , than I do for some wealthy egotist who can afford a bunch of cars all of which have all the most expensive parts, prettiest paint jobs, built by the best builders-- no matter how nice, how superior, they are.

I guess what's important to me is how much of one's SELF is put into the car--not how much money.

Seems whenever I go to car or bike shows, I spend as much time wandering around the parking lot looking at the oil-dripping, foo-foo can painted genuine street running vehicles as I do inside looking at the fancy-ass ones on show.

Every friday theres a Mustang gathering not far from where I live.
Anywhere between 20 and 50 cars will show up.
Lots of old hotrodders with the car they've been playing with for years and a few kids with cars they also play with.
But some also with theyre brand new Saleen's and Shelys GT500.

Couples of weeks ago, a kid whos a poser with a Saleen, you know the type, bragging about how much the car cost, and the price of the ever so specials wheels he had bought had a flat tire.
Welll he couldn't even change his friggin wheel.
he called a tow truck to come and get his tire changed.

POSER

Ya know what I find more obnoxious is when the poser would say to the guy who put himself into the car "ya know this would be better if you used my poser parts.