Plastic Fantastic 2

[SuperBuickGuy]

onward
dust shields are more harm then benefit with what I'm doing

it's almost like GM expected people to cut them off


springs, finally the right ones

time to make adjusting easier

and yes, there is anti-seize everywhere



on to the front

I should have bought 9" springs.. ah well


now to reset everything.edited Need to realign, reweigh.... how much of that happens before I beat on it Sunday? dunno

 

[69427]

and more knocked off the list..
the list
...........................

for those who forgot what the dash looked like removed...
................................
squeeky clutch ... hmmmm
I didn't think it was possible... but here's the problem... they put the bell arm in backwards.edited But I don't think it was the PO, or at least not his fault... it's made backwards

first clue was the zert fitting... it wasn't installed - it's usually on the top, but it wasn't..

thing was, the ring that holds the cup (frame side) was machined into the wrong end. Add to that the hole for the zert was on the bottom.... turning it around solved all its issues.edited Now it can be lubed. I punted on the clip ring - I reduced weight.edited One clip ring
now the clutch works correctly, the difference is one arm is longer then the other - thus in the Corvette, where you don't have as much pedal travel as the truck, it won't work Worst, it sticks to the top of the hole in the firewall.
now it doesn't
In other news, and not on that list.. noise
and a way to test it
..................................

105db at 50 feet and 50 mph.... it idles at 100 db..... hmmm

You lost me on the clutch bellcrank issue. Your parts look the same as my '69 (and similar to a C2 arm on the shelf), including the zerk that gets lubed from underneath.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

and more knocked off the list..
the list
...........................

for those who forgot what the dash looked like removed...
................................
squeeky clutch ... hmmmm
I didn't think it was possible... but here's the problem... they put the bell arm in backwards.edited But I don't think it was the PO, or at least not his fault... it's made backwards

first clue was the zert fitting... it wasn't installed - it's usually on the top, but it wasn't..

thing was, the ring that holds the cup (frame side) was machined into the wrong end. Add to that the hole for the zert was on the bottom.... turning it around solved all its issues.edited Now it can be lubed. I punted on the clip ring - I reduced weight.edited One clip ring
now the clutch works correctly, the difference is one arm is longer then the other - thus in the Corvette, where you don't have as much pedal travel as the truck, it won't work Worst, it sticks to the top of the hole in the firewall.
now it doesn't
In other news, and not on that list.. noise
and a way to test it
..................................

105db at 50 feet and 50 mph.... it idles at 100 db..... hmmm

You lost me on the clutch bellcrank issue. Your parts look the same as my '69 (and similar to a C2 arm on the shelf), including the zerk that gets lubed from underneath.

my initial problem was a squeak when you pressed the clutch pedal. the problem was the rod from the pedal was scraping the top of the hole in the firewall.

The bell arm has 2 different length arms on it. The long arm side was attached to rod that goes to the pedal. The shorter arm is the one that should have been attached to it. Basically someone welded it together wrong. Odds are yours is too.... how do I know? I spent more than a few days maintaining our shop trucks growing up - all were manual. All had that zert on the top of the bell crank.

So I took a chance, I took it apart, turn the arm around (so the long part goes to the clutch fork).... and now the clutch works perfectly (and no squeaking).

I bet someone at GM never realized the that because you could easily weld that together either way and it would work.... the right way to do what I did would be to reweld those arms on the opposite side... but who has time for that? :3rd: this works, it just means there is no clip holding the ball in place on the frame side. Also, for many cars the zert fitting would get knocked off when you used the clutch.....

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

confession time, I never even thought that the fuel push rod needed to stay in place when I eliminated the fuel pump.....edited Had I even thought it through a little bit, I'd have realized that the rod still needs to be in there to limit oil flow
thankfully sbc/bbc is the same diameter. I am impressed I found it in my piles of treasure

heat plug, pull plug, insert rod, reassemble.


also adjusted the valves, set the tire pressure to 45 psi, then scaled it (I swapped springs) - and it was close enoughedited

tomorrow, or day after, video of the festivities.
​​​​​​​

 

[phantomjock]

hmmm - Please smarten me up!

Can you explain why the fuel push rod needs to be in place when you remove the (mechanical) fuel pump? That is the one on the engine - right? I am getting ready to remove and block off mine too - maybe not...

Is it an "oil-thing," or hiding something else in place internally? Glad you found it. I'd be still looking.

Thanks and,
Cheers - Jim

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

hmmm - Please smarten me up!

Can you explain why the fuel push rod needs to be in place when you remove the (mechanical) fuel pump? That is the one on the engine - right? I am getting ready to remove and block off mine too - maybe not...

Is it an "oil-thing," or hiding something else in place internally? Glad you found it. I'd be still looking.

Thanks and,
Cheers - Jim

yeah, premature celebration. it doesn't. back to my original plan of running straight 30w (or ignoring it).

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

So another day of autocross... this time a 'high speed' track.... new issues to overcome. As I mentioned, the oil solution wasn't... so back to my plan of running 30w.

In other news, running rich fouls plugs... yeah, not news

Starting to dial in suspension stuff - need to change the front springs again to a shorter spring (don't worry folks, I have lots of uses for coil over springs - so backstock really isn't a big deal at all)... need to put a bit more altitude in the rear then figure out why I go from neutral to understeer - I think tire pressure and shock settings can help but I'm going to have to go back to my suspension geometry books to relearn.

High speed means I got nearly to 100 mph - that was a lot of fun. Best part is I met several people very local to me who gave me lots of great feedback...

My 'new' issue is I got warm waiting in line - that might be part of a high idle issue that I solved (and didn't get nearly as warm the next time - 3 sessions of 4 runs each), but it's still something I need to focus on because it only gets warmer from here.

I may also have to admit I'm a "Corvette guy" - it was internally humorous to me that the first Ax - everyone would see my Corvette and be sure to let me know of other Corvette guys around.... I never realized it was a club... but then today one of the people that was really helpful had a friend show up who is dialing in his C3.... and I could help him... hmmm

for those curious I was dead middle of the pack. Best time was 52s by a Tesla and last was 1:12.... I started at 1:08, and progressed to 1:00.5 (which, for some reason annoyed me)

 

[bobs77vet]

isn't running rich, fouling plugs and getting warm interrelated?

i think a 12 second improvement from first lap to last lap would make me happy

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

isn't running rich, fouling plugs and getting warm interrelated?

i think a 12 second improvement from first lap to last lap would make me happy

I found it odd that it annoyed me for the very reason you stated. Though on my fastest lap, it had one running issue, so maybe that was it. I love the 427, its power, its sound and its pedigree - but it's issues really make me question why I didn't simply buy a crate LS3 or LS7... the motor mounts for the C5 are still on the cradle

In other news, the clutch works perfect. I wonder how many people have been fighting the squeaking issue and never realized that the clutch feels wrong....

 

[69427]

and more knocked off the list..
the list
...........................

for those who forgot what the dash looked like removed...
................................
squeeky clutch ... hmmmm
I didn't think it was possible... but here's the problem... they put the bell arm in backwards.edited But I don't think it was the PO, or at least not his fault... it's made backwards

first clue was the zert fitting... it wasn't installed - it's usually on the top, but it wasn't..

thing was, the ring that holds the cup (frame side) was machined into the wrong end. Add to that the hole for the zert was on the bottom.... turning it around solved all its issues.edited Now it can be lubed. I punted on the clip ring - I reduced weight.edited One clip ring
now the clutch works correctly, the difference is one arm is longer then the other - thus in the Corvette, where you don't have as much pedal travel as the truck, it won't work Worst, it sticks to the top of the hole in the firewall.
now it doesn't
In other news, and not on that list.. noise
and a way to test it
..................................

105db at 50 feet and 50 mph.... it idles at 100 db..... hmmm

You lost me on the clutch bellcrank issue. Your parts look the same as my '69 (and similar to a C2 arm on the shelf), including the zerk that gets lubed from underneath.

my initial problem was a squeak when you pressed the clutch pedal. the problem was the rod from the pedal was scraping the top of the hole in the firewall.

The bell arm has 2 different length arms on it. The long arm side was attached to rod that goes to the pedal. The shorter arm is the one that should have been attached to it. Basically someone welded it together wrong. Odds are yours is too.... how do I know? I spent more than a few days maintaining our shop trucks growing up - all were manual. All had that zert on the top of the bell crank.

So I took a chance, I took it apart, turn the arm around (so the long part goes to the clutch fork).... and now the clutch works perfectly (and no squeaking).

I bet someone at GM never realized the that because you could easily weld that together either way and it would work.... the right way to do what I did would be to reweld those arms on the opposite side... but who has time for that? :3rd: this works, it just means there is no clip holding the ball in place on the frame side. Also, for many cars the zert fitting would get knocked off when you used the clutch.....

In the grand scheme of the universe this clutch arm discussion isn't terribly important, so we'll just have to respectfully disagree. IMO the arms seem to be in the correct position for leverage/travel, and the holes in the arms are in the correct place for attaching the return and anti-rattle springs, and the bottom position zerk allows lubing while under the car greasing the suspension.

I'm halfway through construction of an aluminum replacement for the stock clutch bellcrank, but I've found that my spare bellcrank that I was going to use to configure my welding jig is an early C2 unit, which has a different angle between the two arms.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

stickers add speed....
seems like a good place for this sticker
​​​​​​​

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

and more knocked off the list..
the list
...........................

for those who forgot what the dash looked like removed...
................................
squeeky clutch ... hmmmm
I didn't think it was possible... but here's the problem... they put the bell arm in backwards.edited But I don't think it was the PO, or at least not his fault... it's made backwards

first clue was the zert fitting... it wasn't installed - it's usually on the top, but it wasn't..

thing was, the ring that holds the cup (frame side) was machined into the wrong end. Add to that the hole for the zert was on the bottom.... turning it around solved all its issues.edited Now it can be lubed. I punted on the clip ring - I reduced weight.edited One clip ring
now the clutch works correctly, the difference is one arm is longer then the other - thus in the Corvette, where you don't have as much pedal travel as the truck, it won't work Worst, it sticks to the top of the hole in the firewall.
now it doesn't
In other news, and not on that list.. noise
and a way to test it
..................................

105db at 50 feet and 50 mph.... it idles at 100 db..... hmmm

You lost me on the clutch bellcrank issue. Your parts look the same as my '69 (and similar to a C2 arm on the shelf), including the zerk that gets lubed from underneath.

my initial problem was a squeak when you pressed the clutch pedal. the problem was the rod from the pedal was scraping the top of the hole in the firewall.

The bell arm has 2 different length arms on it. The long arm side was attached to rod that goes to the pedal. The shorter arm is the one that should have been attached to it. Basically someone welded it together wrong. Odds are yours is too.... how do I know? I spent more than a few days maintaining our shop trucks growing up - all were manual. All had that zert on the top of the bell crank.

So I took a chance, I took it apart, turn the arm around (so the long part goes to the clutch fork).... and now the clutch works perfectly (and no squeaking).

I bet someone at GM never realized the that because you could easily weld that together either way and it would work.... the right way to do what I did would be to reweld those arms on the opposite side... but who has time for that? :3rd: this works, it just means there is no clip holding the ball in place on the frame side. Also, for many cars the zert fitting would get knocked off when you used the clutch.....

In the grand scheme of the universe this clutch arm discussion isn't terribly important, so we'll just have to respectfully disagree. IMO the arms seem to be in the correct position for leverage/travel, and the holes in the arms are in the correct place for attaching the return and anti-rattle springs, and the bottom position zerk allows lubing while under the car greasing the suspension.

I'm halfway through construction of an aluminum replacement for the stock clutch bellcrank, but I've found that my spare bellcrank that I was going to use to configure my welding jig is an early C2 unit, which has a different angle between the two arms.

let's back up. The zert wasn't where I normally think they are - it was a clue not the problem.

I don't really even care how or why GM got it wrong, maybe the guy assembling it got in a fight with his wife, and she loves manuals (or Manuels) and he got his revenge in the most petty way possible. Maybe he just hated those guys who could shift their own cars. dunno, the 70s were, I hear, a wild time.

The problem is the lower needs the longer arm - and by spinning the Z-bar 180 degrees on my car:

- I rid myself of that squeak in the video (and now the rod does line up with the hole)
- I get far better clutch feel
- I get better disengagement of the clutch because rather then the clutch pedal traveling the farthest, the arm travels the greatest distance.

I the concept of agreeing to disagree - but my fix worked. Not sort of worked, not half worked, but totally fixed the problem, worked. I'll even post video of Ax from yesterday to show the problem is gone.... there's no 'difference of opinion here' except maybe where the zert should be but that has no bearing on why I did what I did (it was a nice bonus that it doesn't hit my sidepipes), said what I did, and that I enjoy that it works....

 

[bobs77vet]

i.....- but it's issues really make me question why I didn't simply buy a crate LS3 or LS7... the motor mounts for the C5 are still on the cradle.....

I must be getting old but I am in love with my LS1, as i dream about cars the LS series is all i am think about.....factory engineered, lots of power right from the start. thats a really hard combination to beat. it doesnt have the pedigree as you said but reliability, solid engineering and lots of power does have its place.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

i.....- but it's issues really make me question why I didn't simply buy a crate LS3 or LS7... the motor mounts for the C5 are still on the cradle.....

I must be getting old but I am in love with my LS1, as i dream about cars the LS series is all i am think about.....factory engineered, lots of power right from the start. thats a really hard combination to beat. it doesnt have the pedigree as you said but reliability, solid engineering and lots of power does have its place.

I'm from that tween generation that didn't have BBC's because they took too much fuel*, but then got into computer stuff because it's what was out there... my suspicion is there no reason why the BBC can't be as reliable as an LS - but I just don't have the experience with them and it's frustrating. That said, I'm a huge fan of building the motor for the car - and big bore, good flow and short stroke seem to me to be the right idea. I don't know an LS head that flows 320 cfm... add to it the canted valves which should give better flow (and this isn't my words - the guy who owns Westech Dyno said it)... but we'll see, also, with even spaced ports, the BBC headers are easier to adapt to the LS.... not that I didn't think about that too...

*actually, I had 2 BB 67 Camaros (not factory), and thought they were dogs. But I didn't put either motor together, and (love my dad to pieces) but he was known for trying to detune what I built because my mom browbeat him... now that I've built this 427 he's been a huge fan because it's out of my mom's jurisdiction.

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

plugs

I was getting smoke the moment I got on the throttle...
initially, I thought the brake fluid was leaking onto the headers... maybe a bit...edited

lord are these things crap.edited I thought I could get another set (a whole $50) then fix them.... pretty sure the answer is a resounding no

the smoke but I think the oil leak contributed.edited The other side is dry and fine.

thankfully it's easy to change

and ramps ... tomorrow



oh, and tested today.... 111db at 50' and 6000 rpm... I'd love ideas on how to quiet it without corking it (or losing the sidepipes).... my initial thought is Supertrap disks...

 

[SuperBuickGuy]

to be clear about a few things.

1) I drink the GM Koolaid but don't think they're perfect
2) I love the LS motor, fact is my goal with the 64 Buick wagon is to tow my Corvette with it (and it's powered by a 6.0 LS motor.)
3) I know Manuel, he's a great guy but a bit shifty.

and in the effort to modernize the BB, next up is a coil-on-plug set up
https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/ignition_boxes/street/parts/60151
and port injection
I'm also going to send the Chinesium heads packing when the funds become available (and might build another 427 based on a Dart block).... future plans. Not giving up on my idea.

 

[phantomjock]

oh, and tested today.... 111db at 50' and 6000 rpm... I'd love ideas on how to quiet it without corking it (or losing the sidepipes).... my initial thought is Supertrap disks...

Supertrap! :thumbs:
I've also been thinking along these lines too: Many variants and prices - will require some "sleuthing."

Cheers - Jim

 

[bobs77vet]

mg]

oh, and tested today.... 111db at 50' and 6000 rpm... I'd love ideas on how to quiet it without corking it (or losing the sidepipes).... my initial thought is Supertrap disks...

was that with the car moving or standing still?

what is it at idle up to say 2500 rpm? thats really when you will be going from standing still to moving, 111 db at 50 and 6000 rpm can only last for fraction of a second when its moving. what is the state regulations? and what is is inside the cabin at 6000 rpm?

my son took my 69 with side pipes to the ice cream shop parked out front got his ice cream, ate it then went back to the car and started it up and made the little kids cry, the dads were all laughing and he was apologizing....

 

[mfain]

mg]

oh, and tested today.... 111db at 50' and 6000 rpm... I'd love ideas on how to quiet it without corking it (or losing the sidepipes).... my initial thought is Supertrap disks...

was that with the car moving or standing still?

what is it at idle up to say 2500 rpm? thats really when you will be going from standing still to moving, 111 db at 50 and 6000 rpm can only last for fraction of a second when its moving. what is the state regulations? and what is is inside the cabin at 6000 rpm?

my son took my 69 with side pipes to the ice cream shop parked out front got his ice cream, ate it then went back to the car and started it up and made the little kids cry, the dads were all laughing and he was apologizing....

Several of the Western road courses have db limits. We have one locally (Arizona Motorsports Park) that has a 96 db drive-by limit, and I can't pass it with anything I own. Some guys use Super Trapps and then turn the tip of the tail pipe 90 degrees away from the drive-by test stand. Doesn't help with side pipes.

 

[mfain]

to be clear about a few things.

1) I drink the GM Koolaid but don't think they're perfect
2) I love the LS motor, fact is my goal with the 64 Buick wagon is to tow my Corvette with it (and it's powered by a 6.0 LS motor.)
3) I know Manuel, he's a great guy but a bit shifty.

and in the effort to modernize the BB, next up is a coil-on-plug set up
https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/ignition_boxes/street/parts/60151
and port injection
I'm also going to send the Chinesium heads packing when the funds become available (and might build another 427 based on a Dart block).... future plans. Not giving up on my idea.

I feel your pain. There is nothing like the sound of a BBC at full song, but the dependability (and weight) of an LS certainly has merit. I stuck with the big block, but went with an aluminum block (and moved the motor back 19") to keep weight off the nose. You will feel the weight of a big block up front on a road course! I have an LS7 in my ZO6 and an LS3 in my 1LE SS Camaro, and they both are super reliable and pretty stout - but still not a BBC. Even a 8.4 liter Viper motor doesn't compare. I went with port injection and coil-over-plug in the latest revision. With that you will need a good ECU to manage the higher tech solutions - some of the cheaper units won't keep up. I move slow and technology moves a lot faster, so I still have (taking up shelf space) an unused pair of Brodix BB-2 heads prepped by Sunset Racecraft with roller springs, a "new" Holley HP950 Ultra carb, a Barry Grant (been out of business a while) fuel pump, and a never-installed Dan Olsen road race pan from my "pre-dry sump" evolution days. I could have built a super stout LS for half the money as my latest BBC build, and would have had nearly as much performance capability - but it's just not the same as a BBC!