big2bird
Charter Member, Founder Bird-Run, Cruise-In Bird-R
Okay, let's hear it. What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?:devil:
700R vs. 200R
- Thread starter big2bird
- Start date
bobs77vet
Well-known member
i'm sure gene will speak up for the 2004r.......
i like the 700r4 and the reliability factor is pretty good although i think it really comes down to gear spacing of the trans matched to the rear axle ratio.......the 700r4 is really good for the lower ratio rear ends because of the steep first gear.....the 2004r is better for the higher ratio rear ends since it has a lower ratio 4th gear....
i like the 700r4 and the reliability factor is pretty good although i think it really comes down to gear spacing of the trans matched to the rear axle ratio.......the 700r4 is really good for the lower ratio rear ends because of the steep first gear.....the 2004r is better for the higher ratio rear ends since it has a lower ratio 4th gear....
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Moving to Florida 11 years ago, I needed an overdrive...in the Wash DC area it was not necessary....down here we can c ruise for hours at 80 4 grand don't get it...
I did a 700 conversion in place of the Muncie simply because it was the cheapest possible way to an overdrive....the types and availability of stickshift o/drive units was about nil at that time....considering the cost, it still is....
the 700 needed the floorboard cut and moved over on the pass footwell side...too wide....the driveshaft had to be cut too....another 80 bux....
I didn't have any working knowledge of the 700 except one was in my '87 vette and worked ok, but was turning brown when I dumped the car in favor of the '72 I have now....long story...
anyway, the 700 has some operational problems, would not hold first gear very long....even IF I pulled the lever back...so the thing would upshift in traffic and lug the engine.....1-2 shift 2-3 was fine, no problems....3-4 was fine....BUT.....while in 4th/overdrive....IF I hit the gas at ANY speed, floored the car....that tranny would downshift to 3rd and rev hell out of the engine and I lifted and let it upshift to 4th once, at some 6 grand....when it slammed into 4th, I floored it again....downshift....I backed out of it, and gave up....
it was so bad that actually driving at say 80 and going to give it gas to say pass someone....downshift needlessly....
NOW, the POS shift kit the guy who built it put in was a Superior FAirbanks kit...I blame it for a lot of those irritating habits....
now, I had a 3/4 clutch failure and also changed the 2/4 band while in there, lost all forward 3-4 gear 1-2 were fine.....this time I did all the work on it....btw it had a 'corvette' converter on it....
when it went again, missed a 3/4 upshift under load, I just gave up on it, as I knew the 200 4r was out there by then.....so I got a 200 and rebuilt the unit with a TRANS GO SHIFT KIT.....and put in a truck/tight converter this time....
with a stock length driveshaft again....
the 200 has very good manners, I can floor it at 80 and it don't downshift...pulls good and stays in gear, the upshift of 1-2-3-4 is all fine, right in there, no premature shift, runs good as a 350/400 turbo.....
been in there allmost 3? years now....Danny, sixfooter, built his about the same time, don't think he finished the car yet though...
I am told the 200 is some 50 lbs lighter than the 700 ....:bounce::quote:
BRUTAL64
Neanderthal
According to Art Car-- no contest -- 200R4 hands down better than a 700R4.:twitch:
bobs77vet
Well-known member
my other toy is a 37 ford that i am going to make into an old school hot rod and i get several rodding magazines.....these guys spend big bucks on their toys ......and you know when money is no object they all have 700r4 in them.....or even th350 (go figure on that one).....and i have seen like NO 2004r...
doesnt the 2004r have to be built to hand any kind of torque or hp? while the 700r4 is ok as it is for at least 350 hp and 450 ft lbs? (i can attest to this) although i still think the overriding determning factor should be the overall gear ratios running through the rear axle
doesnt the 2004r have to be built to hand any kind of torque or hp? while the 700r4 is ok as it is for at least 350 hp and 450 ft lbs? (i can attest to this) although i still think the overriding determning factor should be the overall gear ratios running through the rear axle
Artsvettes
Active member
I put a 2004r in my 77. It was the best bang for the buck. Rebuilding them is easier than the 700. It kinda diden't like the 3.08 gears. I bumped it up to 3.55 and it performs alot better.Wiring the lock up and setting the tv cable is the only additional work needed for the swap. Visit Turbo Buicks .com some very good information over there and they do throw some hp. and torque to these transmissions. Like anything else you can dump alot of money into them to make them bullet proof. I am happy with mine.
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Bob, I am shy of 400 hp, and only 425 supposed ft lbs, 336 rear... I tore hell out of two 3/4 clutch packs, and ONE 2/4 band.....at that point I think it is time to give up.....the 700 crowd seems to think the Superior/fairbanks kit is the way to go.....I disagree, by my own experiences....even though I have never had a 700 with a TRANS GO kit.....by default it has to be better....
SO FAR the 200 I managed to built in 2 daze has been fine.....fully realizing that tmrw is another day.....
BTW, the fluid never showed any sign of brown or temp problems in the 700...frigging thing just flat could not stand the use....
it was a late '87 unit, had the aux valve body mod, and all the goodies in it....
:surrender::smash:
TimAT
Addict, Cruise-In Bird-Run 1 Veteran
Both sides of the coin here. Since Gene did his 700, there has been a bunch of research done and mods made to them. Call it "continuous product improvement". same with the 200.
After building both of them, my personal choice is the 700. I like the gear choices in the 200 a little better, but in between the input and ouput shafts on a 200 is a plastic spacer. That spacer is how you set the end play. If it dies the input clutch drum slides back off the pump and bad things happen. One of the biggest problems with the 700 is the rear planetary gears- last on the list for lube and they need it bad. One of the post '89 mods the factory did was to put a sheild on the back of that gearset to keep lube in it. One of the early concerns with the 700 was putting one in a car with some decent horsepower and it would snap the input shaft. I've only seen one that was broken, and it was ugly.
As far as the shifting, a Trans-go or Superior shift kit is the only way to go for either tranny. A 700 with that kit, and it has a Corvette boost and TV valve, and you do a little mod on the 2-4 servo, will hold manual 1st gear for a long time and then the shift is very hard. Now there are even more heavy duty parts available.
I've become a fan of some of the newer electronic controlled transmissions. Unfortunatly, the 4L60E (new 700) and 4L80E (TH400 with OD) are so flamin' big they won't go in a Vette without some big surgery on the tunnel. The advantage to the "E" trannys is that you can adjust line pressure and shift points with a laptop..
My $.0001
:beer:
After building both of them, my personal choice is the 700. I like the gear choices in the 200 a little better, but in between the input and ouput shafts on a 200 is a plastic spacer. That spacer is how you set the end play. If it dies the input clutch drum slides back off the pump and bad things happen. One of the biggest problems with the 700 is the rear planetary gears- last on the list for lube and they need it bad. One of the post '89 mods the factory did was to put a sheild on the back of that gearset to keep lube in it. One of the early concerns with the 700 was putting one in a car with some decent horsepower and it would snap the input shaft. I've only seen one that was broken, and it was ugly.
As far as the shifting, a Trans-go or Superior shift kit is the only way to go for either tranny. A 700 with that kit, and it has a Corvette boost and TV valve, and you do a little mod on the 2-4 servo, will hold manual 1st gear for a long time and then the shift is very hard. Now there are even more heavy duty parts available.
I've become a fan of some of the newer electronic controlled transmissions. Unfortunatly, the 4L60E (new 700) and 4L80E (TH400 with OD) are so flamin' big they won't go in a Vette without some big surgery on the tunnel. The advantage to the "E" trannys is that you can adjust line pressure and shift points with a laptop..
My $.0001
:beer:
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
Hey Tim, somewhere in my readings that plastic spacer was replace by a torrington setup.....NO??? Iknow I did not replace any new torrington bearings.....I forget if the stock rebuild kit I got from a tranny parts house here had any new spacer or not in there.....
now you making me nervous....
:gurney::search:
now you making me nervous....
:gurney::search:
TimAT
Addict, Cruise-In Bird-Run 1 Veteran
I have not seen that. There were something like 6 different thickness spacers that were available to get the end play correct. Different color to identify the thickness. Most of the ones I saw looked like they had been toasted way too long. No longer flat and sort of looked like the goo they put on a cinnamon roll, but way to hard to eat..
mrvette
Phantom of the Opera
OK, that is NOT what I saw then must have been another shim/spacer/bushing.....
but I remember a white plastic shim looked like nylon, and only slightly brownish but not worn....stiff but not brittle had lines into the surface on each? side looking like spokes of a wheel impressed on it....
it's seemed fine....and I figgered if it was bad as a regular thing, the kit would have it....
I never did check any of that end play stuff with a micrometer, but by feel....I can judge pretty good when something just feels right, I think anyway..it works....so well enough alone for now.....tmrw is another day...
Walt from down the street coming over needs a battery, he getting one now, has the vette battery on loan.....he has a terrible loud wirring sound from under the hood on his Saturn....accessory drive....will locate when he gets the battery.....alt is putting out 14.5 at the terms, so it's the battery allright....
TimAT
Addict, Cruise-In Bird-Run 1 Veteran
Here is a picture of that plastic spacer they use in the 2004R tranny to set the end play. Other than the 4th clutch, the biggest failure point I have seen in this tranny.
Here is a picture of that plastic spacer they use in the 2004R tranny to set the end play. Other than the 4th clutch, the biggest failure point I have seen in this tranny.
and there isn't a upgrade part ??
gkull
Well-known member
TimAT
Addict, Cruise-In Bird-Run 1 Veteran
Here is a picture of that plastic spacer they use in the 2004R tranny to set the end play. Other than the 4th clutch, the biggest failure point I have seen in this tranny.
and there isn't a upgrade part ??
Not that I have seen. There are 6 different spacers like this one.
I'm not saying that there is not an upgraded part, just that I have not seen one.
Twin_Turbo
Der Maulwurf
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2008
- Messages
- 7,575
The 4L60E is dimensionally about the same as the 700R4 (apart from having a full bellhousing w/ kickout for starter and a thicker bellhousing top), it'll fit just fine. In fact, the 4L80E will fit fine also:
From Monty's website:
There was some uncertainty as to whether the 4L80E would fit into the transmission tunnel of a C3 Corvette. Most of the uncertainty was due to the fact that no one seemed to have ever heard of anyone installing one in this model of Corvette. My 1982 Corvette came from the factory with a 700R4 transmission, but some earlier C3 Corvettes did come with TH400's. Since the 4L80E is a derivative of a TH400, I was confident that it would fit, even though it is a little larger.
The only modification I had to make to the 4L80E itself, was to cut off a mounting 'ear' up near the front of the transmission. This mount is unneeded for my application, so I cut it off with a Sawzall.
There are a couple of considerations that must be accounted for when retrofitting a 4L80E. First, it is electronically controlled, so you will typically have to install either a modified GM transmission controller, which is available from many sources, or you can use one of the many aftermarket electronic transmission controllers. Another option is to modify the valvebody for full manual operation. Transgo now makes a fully manual valvebody kit for the 4L80E which does not require a computer.
Since I am using the SpeedPro/FAST SEFI system, I decided to also go with the TCI/FAST T-COM transmission controller, which shares many of the same components. I'm sure the other electronic controllers are fine, but I felt more comfortable with the more well-established TCI/FAST brand. Plus I know the electronics are rugged, and the software is high quality and easy to use. The T-COM system allows you full programming capability of shift points, shift feel/pressure, and torque convertor lockup, all via a laptop computer.
The second main consideration with the 4L80E install is adapting a speedometer. The 4L80E is only offered from GM with an electronic speedometer. So you will either have to convert to an electronic speedometer or purchase an aftermarket tailhousing extension that has been modified to accomodate a speedometer drive gear. Unless you already have aftermarket gauges or are willing to convert the speedometer, this seems like a good option. I bought one from Bowtie Overdrives for about $150.
There is one thing that you should be aware of, since this transmission is intended for heavy-duty truck applications, you should be aware that there are 2-wheel drive and 4-wheel drive versions of this tranny. The difference is the tail housing extension and the output shaft. When you buy the 4L80E, make sure you get the 2-wheel drive version. Also, if you get the transmission from GM, it will normally come with a tailhousing extension that is setup for a driveshaft drum brake, so you will need to swap out the tailhousing for a normal one.
The 4L80E uses a TH400 transmission yoke. I ordered a billet 4340 T400 yoke from Strange due my high-output twin turbo application, but you can find a T400 yoke at almost any salvage yard or transmission shop. Also, be aware that the torque convertor for the 4L80E is different than most other convertors. First of all, the thing is a monster, weighing about 75 lbs. It also has 6 mounting pads, rather than 3, so in most cases you're going to need, and probably want, an aftermarket torque convertor - be sure to tell them it's for a 4L80E and you want 3 mounting pads if you intend to use a standard Chevy style flexplate.
As for the transmission crossmember and driveshaft - these will almost certainly need to be modified according to your application. As I mentioned, my car came with a 700R4, so I had to make the crossmember to accomodate the 4L80E. First, the 4L80E is a couple of inches longer than the 700R4, so the rear transmission bracket will have to be moved back an inch or so. This is no big deal, but if you can't do it yourself a good chassis shop should be able to weld a bracket onto your crossmember for a reasonable amount. The driveshaft will also need to be shortened accordingly.
Here is a picture of that plastic spacer they use in the 2004R tranny to set the end play. Other than the 4th clutch, the biggest failure point I have seen in this tranny.
and there isn't a upgrade part ??
Not that I have seen. There are 6 different spacers like this one.
I'm not saying that there is not an upgraded part, just that I have not seen one.
i'm guessing this spacer is under compression ?
TimAT
Addict, Cruise-In Bird-Run 1 Veteran
The spacer is not really under any compression, but it limits the travel of the front and rear shafts. As changes in gears and laods occur, the shafts move together or apart and the spacer is what controls the amount. So in effect, it gets hammered all the time, and then add in a little overheating and it melts.
Good info there TT, The last thing I had seen was the 4L80E case was bigger (wider) than a 700, and was longer as well. So to get one installed, you had to open the tunnel. The electronic control is a no brainer- a controller and a laptop and that's a done. The crossmember being different is a bit of a deal, but there are several places to get one. From what I've seen, and after reading your reply, it will fit, but you're going to have to be ready to adjust things around it. What could be better than a TH400 with an overdrive?
Good info there TT, The last thing I had seen was the 4L80E case was bigger (wider) than a 700, and was longer as well. So to get one installed, you had to open the tunnel. The electronic control is a no brainer- a controller and a laptop and that's a done. The crossmember being different is a bit of a deal, but there are several places to get one. From what I've seen, and after reading your reply, it will fit, but you're going to have to be ready to adjust things around it. What could be better than a TH400 with an overdrive?
wow,,you'd think there would be brass replacements at least
