Stuck on start

Beagle 1 said:
I dropped the starter and looked it over real good. Ran it quite a few times on my battery charger. Everything appeared nornal.
The only thing that MAY have been out of spec was the 1 way clutch on the drive gear. I remember that the clutch pressure was fairly stiff even when new, but it did seem to lighten up as I exercized it today. It appears to be a sealed unit, and therefore not adjustable or greaseable.
Anyway, I slapped it back together and it seems like the problem is solved.
But, things like this make me nervous, as I don't really know if I fixed it.

Anyone know anything about the 1 way drive unit on the starter gear?
Could this be the problem, and is it likely to bind up again?

Think I'll run for a while without tightening the bolt on the battery cable clamp, as removing the batt cable was the only way I could get the starter to stop.
Click to expand...

Sounds like your talking about the "starter drive" (aka bendix).
If it is failing, you will hear it click when the key is turned and a whirring sound without the engine turning.
Must be replaced.

Other possibility is it is bound due to dried up grease and dirt and/or a worn bushing in the nose.
You can clean and lube the shaft and end bearing. Don't get solvents or lube into the sealed clutch. Easiest is to take the solenoid off and manually exercise the drive by hand. Good time to clean any gunk from the solenoid assembly and clean the contacts too.

To test for a sticking ignition switch,
just use and test lite etc on the disconnected start wire (purple) at the starter and and when your helper releases the key, see if the lite goes out.

That should cover all the possibilities.

Starter parts are not hot sellers any longer and not available everywhere as they used to be.
If you want to fuss with it, you can get parts from a local starter rebuilder or a place like this.
http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/starterdrives.html
 
From the past dialogue it does not seem that the problem is in the ignition switch. However, I would like to share a recent experience.

I was rebuilding a T&T steering column and thought that replacing the ignition switch and the lock cylinder just might be a good idea on a 30+ year old column. I went to my nearest Carquest store and purchased a T&T column switch and lock. I didn't notice until I got home that the ignition switch was manufactured offshore. The lock cylinder was a GM part.

When I installed the switch on the column I found that it seemed to hang-up in the START position. I took the switch off the column and actuated it with a small phillips screwdriver. I found the same "glitch" when pulling the slider into the START position and letting the internal spring push the slider back into RUN.

I felt that reinstalling the original switch was probably a more prudent move than replacing it. BTW, I took the switch back and explained that it seemed to be defective. I got my money back, but when I got home I noticed "RETURN TO STOCK" on the receipt. So much for investigating a defective switch.

Merry Christmas,
Jim
 
JIML82 said:
From the past dialogue it does not seem that the problem is in the ignition switch. However, I would like to share a recent experience.

I was rebuilding a T&T steering column and thought that replacing the ignition switch and the lock cylinder just might be a good idea on a 30+ year old column. I went to my nearest Carquest store and purchased a T&T column switch and lock. I didn't notice until I got home that the ignition switch was manufactured offshore. The lock cylinder was a GM part.

When I installed the switch on the column I found that it seemed to hang-up in the START position. I took the switch off the column and actuated it with a small phillips screwdriver. I found the same "glitch" when pulling the slider into the START position and letting the internal spring push the slider back into RUN.

I felt that reinstalling the original switch was probably a more prudent move than replacing it. BTW, I took the switch back and explained that it seemed to be defective. I got my money back, but when I got home I noticed "RETURN TO STOCK" on the receipt. So much for investigating a defective switch.

Merry Christmas,
Jim
Click to expand...

This is exactly why I stopped disassembling my column. Suspect replacement parts--even GM--, and not wanting to risk breaking something else that might continue working for years if I didn't touch it.
Also, I did realize that the problem was probably the starter.
After removing and not finding any binding or sticking of the solenoid or Bendix, I reinstalled it and the problem is solved, at least temporairily.
Kragen lists 3 replacement Bendix drives at $8, $19, and $28.
WTF???
I wonder if they are all made in China and just packaged differently?
 
Beagle 1 said:
JIML82 said:
From the past dialogue it does not seem that the problem is in the ignition switch. However, I would like to share a recent experience.

I was rebuilding a T&T steering column and thought that replacing the ignition switch and the lock cylinder just might be a good idea on a 30+ year old column. I went to my nearest Carquest store and purchased a T&T column switch and lock. I didn't notice until I got home that the ignition switch was manufactured offshore. The lock cylinder was a GM part.

When I installed the switch on the column I found that it seemed to hang-up in the START position. I took the switch off the column and actuated it with a small phillips screwdriver. I found the same "glitch" when pulling the slider into the START position and letting the internal spring push the slider back into RUN.

I felt that reinstalling the original switch was probably a more prudent move than replacing it. BTW, I took the switch back and explained that it seemed to be defective. I got my money back, but when I got home I noticed "RETURN TO STOCK" on the receipt. So much for investigating a defective switch.

Merry Christmas,
Jim
Click to expand...

This is exactly why I stopped disassembling my column. Suspect replacement parts--even GM--, and not wanting to risk breaking something else that might continue working for years if I didn't touch it.
Also, I did realize that the problem was probably the starter.
After removing and not finding any binding or sticking of the solenoid or Bendix, I reinstalled it and the problem is solved, at least temporairily.
Kragen lists 3 replacement Bendix drives at $8, $19, and $28.
WTF???
I wonder if they are all made in China and just packaged differently?
Click to expand...

Of all the GM starters I have rebuilt, I have yet to see a bad one. They only break when you backfire on start up. I would trust a good used one long before a Chinese POS. I "think" John B has a good used one.(Easyasone2three).
 
watching to see what happens here mine was doing some goofy stuff too started it one time and the started stayed in turned the key off and it stopped turned it back on and it was fine then im driving down the road the starter kicks in sometimes... i think mine is in the switch.... also the night before that the interior lights just up and quit i hope that is all the same problem but i feel it might be two different switch problems....
 
Cliff notes here.
I tried to get the key switch out of the column and it wouldn't budge.
Rather than continueing on with this, I rethought the problem, and decided to yank the starter and check for a sticking solenoid. Everything checked out fine, and the problem seemed to be fixed.
Car started fine for the next 3-4 times.
Last Sat AM, same problem, starter hung up and would only release when I pulled the bat cable.
Good thing the carb leaks down and the car doesn't start right away after it sets for a few days. I noticed the starter run on before it got gas.
Ok, so now to replace the starter/ignition switch.

QUESTION--is there any way to replace the switch without removing the column??
 
Beag, the bottom panel under the column is 3 screws, then there are two 9/16 cap bolts on the column itself, then it drops down, revealing the switch down lo, and two-three? 5/16 bolts holding it down, the plugs are easy too at that point....you will notice some slots on the switch that slide it up/down the column for positioning....if that switch slipped, it can cause your problem...

maybe take a close critical look at it on the adjustment slots with those bolts...

:bounce:
 
mrvette said:
Beag, the bottom panel under the column is 3 screws, then there are two 9/16 cap bolts on the column itself, then it drops down, revealing the switch down lo, and two-three? 5/16 bolts holding it down, the plugs are easy too at that point....you will notice some slots on the switch that slide it up/down the column for positioning....if that switch slipped, it can cause your problem...

maybe take a close critical look at it on the adjustment slots with those bolts...
:bounce:
Click to expand...

this is very helpfull info i may need to check mine in this area......
 
OK, got the switch at Napa today. They have one for $11 list and their own Ecklin brand for $22 list. Probably the same part, but I sprung for the Ecklin brand hoping for a higher quality part. $15 with my company discount.
As advised above, I'll probably pull the seat and try to drop the column down a little to replace the switch. This should save ALOT of time if I don't have to pull the column completely out.
Would it help if I disconnected the rag joint?????
Thanks all.
 
Beagle 1 said:
OK, got the switch at Napa today. They have one for $11 list and their own Ecklin brand for $22 list. Probably the same part, but I sprung for the Ecklin brand hoping for a higher quality part. $15 with my company discount.
As advised above, I'll probably pull the seat and try to drop the column down a little to replace the switch. This should save ALOT of time if I don't have to pull the column completely out.
Would it help if I disconnected the rag joint?????
Thanks all.
Click to expand...

If you pull the rag joint, you might as well pull the column. Jim shea advises against bowing the column, so I would either pull it out, or just do it in place.
The 81 is not that bad, but yours, I am not sure.
 
010752 said:
You shouldn't lower the column without removing the 2 bolts and outer plate at the firewall.
Click to expand...

Yes, my main concern is that I don't screw up somthing else while doing this and have to go in there again.
I was trying not to have to disasemble everything, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet.
Bird, I guess I won't know till I start if there is room under there or not.
 
OK, I bit the bullet and removed the steering column and replaced the switch.

Holy crap!!!!

Everything went smoothly and I didn't screw anything else up--as far as I know. Pretty unusual!!

I think I knew deep down that the switch was the problem, but I really didn't want to pull the steering column, so I checked the easy stuff first.

Anyway, the main reason for this posting is to let everyone know that this is alot easier job then I imagined. It took me about 3hrs by myself. No special tools or removing alot of other parts to gain access. So, don't hesitate if you need to do this to your car.

Thanks again for all the helpful comments, especially Jim S.
 
OK, back to square 1.
Recap. When trying to start the car, the starter stays engaged even when the key is released. After a little research, I tried the easy stuff first. I tried to replace the key switch, but even when following the recommended procedures, the switch wouldn't come out. Probably some part of the pot metal is peened over a little. So, before going garilla on it and screwing something else up, I re-grouped and pulled the starter in order to check that the solenoid wasn't sticking. Everything seem fine there, and the car did seem to start correctly for a few times. Then it stuck again. So I bit the bullet and pulled the steering column and replaced the starter switch. Again, everything seemed fine for a few starts.
This morning, STUCK ON AGAIN!! :suicide:

So, back to the key switch???

Anything else to consider??
 
Just to get the terminology correct. The ignition switch is mounted down under the dash on top of the steering column. The ignition lock cylinder is that part where you stick your key. The lock cylinder engages a small plastic gear called a sector inside the column head. The teeth on the sector engage matching teeth on a small die cast rack. So when you rotate your key, the rotation of the lock cylinder and sector is changed to a up and down movement of the rack. The rack moves a rod that reaches down under the dash to the ignition switch.

The switch itself has an internal spring that tries to push you out of START and into the RUN mode. So if your car "hangs up" in START mode there are only a couple things that could cause your steering column to be the culprit. 1). The switch itself hangs up. (But you replaced the switch so it is very doubtful that it is the switch itself.) 2). Your lock cylinder hangs up and prevents the spring in the switch from pushing you back out of START. (You should be able to tell if the key and lock cylinder operates smoothly and comes out of START easily. 3). The plastic sector and rack are damaged or assembled incorrectly (Again you should be able to rotate your key and tell if things are operating smoothly.) 4). One last thing: There are five positions for your ignition key and switch. They are as follows, full clockwise and rotating back; START (spring return to run), RUN (distinct detent), OFF (distinct detent), OFF-LOCK (distinct detent), and ACCESSORY (need to push in on the lock cylinder to reach). You should be able to rotate your key and feel all five positions distinctly.

If all things above seem to be correct, start looking elsewhere for your problem. It isn't in the column.
Jim
 
JIML82 said:
Just to get the terminology correct. The ignition switch is mounted down under the dash on top of the steering column. The ignition lock cylinder is that part where you stick your key. The lock cylinder engages a small plastic gear called a sector inside the column head. The teeth on the sector engage matching teeth on a small die cast rack. So when you rotate your key, the rotation of the lock cylinder and sector is changed to a up and down movement of the rack. The rack moves a rod that reaches down under the dash to the ignition switch.

The switch itself has an internal spring that tries to push you out of START and into the RUN mode. So if your car "hangs up" in START mode there are only a couple things that could cause your steering column to be the culprit. 1). The switch itself hangs up. (But you replaced the switch so it is very doubtful that it is the switch itself.) 2). Your lock cylinder hangs up and prevents the spring in the switch from pushing you back out of START. (You should be able to tell if the key and lock cylinder operates smoothly and comes out of START easily. 3). The plastic sector and rack are damaged or assembled incorrectly (Again you should be able to rotate your key and tell if things are operating smoothly.) 4). One last thing: There are five positions for your ignition key and switch. They are as follows, full clockwise and rotating back; START (spring return to run), RUN (distinct detent), OFF (distinct detent), OFF-LOCK (distinct detent), and ACCESSORY (need to push in on the lock cylinder to reach). You should be able to rotate your key and feel all five positions distinctly.

If all things above seem to be correct, start looking elsewhere for your problem. It isn't in the column.
Jim
Click to expand...

I pulled the steering wheel again this morning and tried to remove the lock cylinder. No luck. It does go into all 5 positions, but does feel a little gritty, or perhaps it is just the detents in the the ignition switch. But it appears to be ok, so I'll leave it alone. I can see the plastic gear turn, and what I think is the end of the rack move in and out as the key is turned, so the whole mechanical part seems to be working. The key does spring back from start to run, and the key does move the switch from start through all positions and back again, so it would appear that the whole system is working correctly.

So, if it isn't the control system to the starter, it would have to be the starter?
I previously pulled the starter and bench tested it and everything seemed to work well. Solenoid powered out and sprung back in when the power was disconnected and the linkage didn't appear to be binding.
There aren't any relays or switches in the starting system of a 69 that could hang up or short out are there?
This morning while testing, when the starter hung up, I could get it to shut down by rapidly turning the key back and forth from run to stop. Or maybe it just droped out by itself.
For a simple system, this is really driving me nuts.
 
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