Lazy-assed Ophra watching good for nothings....

[big2bird]

I would also bring up that part of this arguement is about benefits.
Yes, health ins is high, and that is the medical system that is just insane at this time.
I have ins, depending on how many hours I work.
Guess who pays for the medical on the non union workers without ins? YOU.
The hospitals have to accept them without charge, and make it up by charging the people WITH ins $50 for a Tylenol.

 

[big2bird]

I'm not buying into that. So with your logic, if we abolished the UAW tomorrow, the big 3 would screw their employees?..You believe that?...

What I AM saying is if that happened tomarrow, their prices of cars would not go down 1 fucking nickel. I bet you $1000 on that one.
I have seen it in housing, retail stores, and large corporations.
They go non union, and its staus quo, but profit margin goes up.
The money just shifts from employees to stockholders.

 

[big_G]

I would also bring up that part of this arguement is about benefits.
Yes, health ins is high, and that is the medical system that is just insane at this time.
I have ins, depending on how many hours I work.
Guess who pays for the medical on the non union workers without ins? YOU.
The hospitals have to accept them without charge, and make it up by charging the people WITH ins $50 for a Tylenol.

We can all agree that the health care system is fucked up big time. I think Obama has it half right. I think everyone should have health insurance, but not on a single payer system. Allow across state sales of insurance, and the feds. should give tax credits towards the purchase of insurance based on income. The more people paying in, the lower the costs will be.

 

[mrvette]

I would also bring up that part of this arguement is about benefits.
Yes, health ins is high, and that is the medical system that is just insane at this time.
I have ins, depending on how many hours I work.
Guess who pays for the medical on the non union workers without ins? YOU.
The hospitals have to accept them without charge, and make it up by charging the people WITH ins $50 for a Tylenol.

Tell me about it, little over a year ago, I shit what looked like a ton of blood when I thought I was just going to fart.....and so off to the ER, it was a sunday afternoon, of course, or I could have gone to my usual Doc down the road a tad further.....

so they went wild and gimme the exam and blood samples, etc....diagnosis....diverticulitis irritated stomach....turns out it's from those damn Brazil nutz I ate....tore my ass a new one, literally.....shame, because I used to eat the living crap outta a whole damn bag of those things....

so anyway, this bill for 4 hours and a rectal exam, they asked if I did anal sex, I just laughed, wife was with me....but so they confirmed no damage, ruled that out....and so the diagnosis....

the bill, OVER five grand.....SOME 5400 BUX......FUCK ME RUNNING!!!!

4 hours, saw doc maybe 15 minits time.....

so what you say is definately true.....last time I going to THAT hospital, ..... who paid? the US.gov...medicrap someting or other....

I take a 4 buck Wallyworld prostrate pill so I can pee really good, that's IT.....

:clap::clap::crutches: getting older sux.....

 

[big_G]

I'm not buying into that. So with your logic, if we abolished the UAW tomorrow, the big 3 would screw their employees?..You believe that?...

What I AM saying is if that happened tomarrow, their prices of cars would not go down 1 fucking nickel. I bet you $1000 on that one.
I have seen it in housing, retail stores, and large corporations.
They go non union, and its staus quo, but profit margin goes up.
The money just shifts from employees to stockholders.

I don't see your logic..(I am dense...lol). Right now, the domestic and foreign cars (non-union, made here) are at price parity now. So what if the price doesn't go down?...will people not buy Corvettes and Cadillacs? If the profit margin goes up, it is good for stockholders for sure. Many employees are stockholders, through stock options or their 401-K. A win-win, I think.

 

[big2bird]

I would also bring up that part of this arguement is about benefits.
Yes, health ins is high, and that is the medical system that is just insane at this time.
I have ins, depending on how many hours I work.
Guess who pays for the medical on the non union workers without ins? YOU.
The hospitals have to accept them without charge, and make it up by charging the people WITH ins $50 for a Tylenol.

We can all agree that the health care system is fucked up big time. I think Obama has it half right. I think everyone should have health insurance, but not on a single payer system. Allow across state sales of insurance, and the feds. should give tax credits towards the purchase of insurance based on income. The more people paying in, the lower the costs will be.

G, I see your point of view also. So, the truith is somewhere in between.
This is how I look at it. Bare with me.
You build two buildings. One non union, one union.
The union one , per hour, pays that guy enough to live on, have ins, and put away his share for retirement. The true cost of that building is keyed into its cost.
Now, the non union building is cheaper to build.
He may or not make enough to live on, and has no benies.
Now, the cost of his health ins and retirement is passed onto the system via high helath care costs, extended unemployment, or welfare because he has no retirement plan, nor can afford one. Society picks up this tab.
The corporation has merely shifted the cost of the building from its initial outlay, to the taxpayers. They do not care. There corporate office is offshore, where they don't pay for it, you and I do.
Can you see where I am coming from.
Money is like energy. It is not created or destroyed, it just comes from somewhere else.

 

[damoroso]

Union leadership is in it for one thing. Themselves. Not the members, and I think the members are seeing that. It's up to them to fix the unions. Hopefully they'll see they don't need unions...it's a waste of their time and money.

If we abolished unions tomarrow, corporate America would fuck and enslave the entire working class.
The "company store" mentality would pop right back, and the middle class would disappear forever.

I have had this discussion with my best friend for years.
He was an iron worker, non union, and I was a union sparky.
He boasted he made the same $$, had a 401K and health benefits.
WHEN his boss got a divorce, he took all their 401K money, and went to the Caymen islands. Fucked the whole lot of them.
If he was union, that money would not have been touched.
Without a voice in govt, equal to corporate america, the balance of power would shift towards corporations like Wal Mart, that just walk all over the common guy.

Sorry Bird, that's BS. What your friend had happen to him was criminal, litterally. Union pensions aren't any safer by the way, if the senior union leadership was AFU, they could steal pension funds too. Like I said earlier, DoL/OSHA and other gov agencies protect workers from things like wrongfull termination, sexual harrassment etc. so those protections are there for everyone, without unions. I believe if the free market were allowed to work, things would even out rather quickly. You're an IBEW member and as such I assume a highly qualifed, competent and capable electrician or similar (I'm not being sarcastic either). But if there weren't unions and company A and company B had openings for electricians, and company A offered higher wages/benefits and working conditions than B, company A becomes the employer of choice. That means company A has the pick of the best employees and therefore should be able to put out the best product at the best price. This then causes company B to change or become less competative....and if managmemt is acutally doing their job, unions are unecessary. Work should be a team effort. You MUST take care of your workforce to be the most competative you can be.

BTW, I can't stand Wal-Mart and won't set foot in the place...ask my wife!! But Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, Honda (all here in the US) and other companies are competative, offer good jobs/pay/benefits and they aren't organized....we can talk about why companies move jobs off shore if you'd like, but it really isn't so much because of labor cost...

 

[big2bird]

Union pensions aren't any safer by the way, if the senior union leadership was AFU, they could steal pension funds too.

Wrong. All union pensions are in an independant trust that no one can touch. The feds set a minimum balance. We just had a pay cut that shifted more mony into the pension to offset increasing retirements due to the economy. We take care of our own problems, not the feds or any taxpayer.

 

[damoroso]

I would also bring up that part of this arguement is about benefits.
Yes, health ins is high, and that is the medical system that is just insane at this time.
I have ins, depending on how many hours I work.
Guess who pays for the medical on the non union workers without ins? YOU.
The hospitals have to accept them without charge, and make it up by charging the people WITH ins $50 for a Tylenol.

Yup, that's part of the story. The fix? Probably not having health care paid for by employers. Or at least allow them to shop for the best value. Think of it like this. Here in Florida, I only have two choices for coverage. Blue-Cross and Aetna. Kind of like a monopoly isn't it? I also have coverages for pregnancy, and a whole host of things that literally don't apply to me. Plus, I know (cause my doc is actually a friend of mine) that malpractice insurance causes cost to increase not only to pay for the huge premiums, but becaus it causes docs to do more tests than they might otherwise do (defensive medicine) so when they get sued, and the attorneys ask if maybe, perhaps, just in this instance, one more test might has shown the issue, they can say yes they did the test and not get raped by the court.

The answer? Allow us to shop for insurance across state lines, so we can find the best provider at the best price and let us choose coverage like we do for our cars. Pick the coverages and levels we need, find what works for us. Catastrophic coverage only if that's what we need, or at least only the coverage that applies to us. Then limit what malpractice suits can pay (obviously circumstance driven). And for those folks who can't afford coverage, the gov can give them the same coverage federal employees get, and then pro-rate it based on income levels. That could be available to everyone. Still private insurance, but bought at the goverment "bulk" rate.

 

[big2bird]

I would also bring up that part of this arguement is about benefits.
Yes, health ins is high, and that is the medical system that is just insane at this time.
I have ins, depending on how many hours I work.
Guess who pays for the medical on the non union workers without ins? YOU.
The hospitals have to accept them without charge, and make it up by charging the people WITH ins $50 for a Tylenol.

Yup, that's part of the story. The fix? Probably not having health care paid for by employers. Or at least allow them to shop for the best value. Think of it like this. Here in Florida, I only have two choices for coverage. Blue-Cross and Aetna. Kind of like a monopoly isn't it? I also have coverages for pregnancy, and a whole host of things that literally don't apply to me. Plus, I know (cause my doc is actually a friend of mine) that malpractice insurance causes cost to increase not only to pay for the huge premiums, but becaus it causes docs to do more tests than they might otherwise do (defensive medicine) so when they get sued, and the attorneys ask if maybe, perhaps, just in this instance, one more test might has shown the issue, they can say yes they did the test and not get raped by the court.

The answer? Allow us to shop for insurance across state lines, so we can find the best provider at the best price and let us choose coverage like we do for our cars. Pick the coverages and levels we need, find what works for us. Catastrophic coverage only if that's what we need, or at least only the coverage that applies to us. Then limit what malpractice suits can pay (obviously circumstance driven). And for those folks who can't afford coverage, the gov can give them the same coverage federal employees get, and then pro-rate it based on income levels. That could be available to everyone. Still private insurance, but bought at the goverment "bulk" rate.

I agree. One of the largest reasons for unions is benefits. If health care costs were more far than even, it would level the playing field for everyone. I have no issue with this at all.

 

[damoroso]

Union pensions aren't any safer by the way, if the senior union leadership was AFU, they could steal pension funds too.

Wrong. All union pensions are in an independant trust that no one can touch. The feds set a minimum balance. We just had a pay cut that shifted more mony into the pension to offset increasing retirements due to the economy. We take care of our own problems, not the feds or any taxpayer.

Bet I can find and instance where a union screwed a pension fund...but just like the instance you showed with your friends 401K, that would certainly be the exception not the rule. Bottom line is I believe for a whole bunch of reasons, unions are no longer necessary and take money from you without providing you much in return. But, I support that you have the right to belong to one if you choose. I just wish people had an equal right not to belong to one, or to "opt out" but we know how that works at TSA!! :drink:

 

[damoroso]

I'm not buying into that. So with your logic, if we abolished the UAW tomorrow, the big 3 would screw their employees?..You believe that?...

What I AM saying is if that happened tomarrow, their prices of cars would not go down 1 fucking nickel. I bet you $1000 on that one.
I have seen it in housing, retail stores, and large corporations.
They go non union, and its staus quo, but profit margin goes up.
The money just shifts from employees to stockholders.

Any idea what legacy cost adds to the cost of a vehicle? Maybe cars isn't the best example.

 

[big2bird]

Union pensions aren't any safer by the way, if the senior union leadership was AFU, they could steal pension funds too.

Wrong. All union pensions are in an independant trust that no one can touch. The feds set a minimum balance. We just had a pay cut that shifted more mony into the pension to offset increasing retirements due to the economy. We take care of our own problems, not the feds or any taxpayer.

Bet I can find and instance where a union screwed a pension fund...but just like the instance you showed with your friends 401K, that would certainly be the exception not the rule. Bottom line is I believe for a whole bunch of reasons, unions are no longer necessary and take money from you without providing you much in return. But, I support that you have the right to belong to one if you choose. I just wish people had an equal right not to belong to one, or to "opt out" but we know how that works at TSA!! :drink:

I agree. If someone wants to be non union, it's a free country. Power to them.
If the want a job at Wal Mart, making min wage, and make just enough to spend it all at wal Mart on Chinese crap to barely sustain their life, power to them. Wal Mart sucks up these zombies like caviar.

 

[big2bird]

I'm not buying into that. So with your logic, if we abolished the UAW tomorrow, the big 3 would screw their employees?..You believe that?...

What I AM saying is if that happened tomarrow, their prices of cars would not go down 1 fucking nickel. I bet you $1000 on that one.
I have seen it in housing, retail stores, and large corporations.
They go non union, and its staus quo, but profit margin goes up.
The money just shifts from employees to stockholders.

Any idea what legacy cost adds to the cost of a vehicle? Maybe cars isn't the best example.

I do not know. Manufacturing is a largely different animal than what I do.

 

[big2bird]

So I am going to post my full story here, and let it go.
I have been in construction 33 years. All the buildings I built were paid entirely by the developer, not subsidised by taxpayers. I have ins, a pension, and have never collected unemployment longer than the 26 weeks I get paid for. I will never need assitence from the govt.
I own a home that I can afford, and pay taxes to educate millions of illegals that never have paid into the system.
I am on unemployment till Jan 15th, when the next show starts. This is paid by my employer gleefully, as he knows I will return to work as apart of the workpool. This cost is passsed onto the participants in trade shows, as high fees. Since trade shows are not 365 days a year, it has to come from somewhere.
They can't just put us in the freezer untill the next show.
It is just enough for food, and I pay taxes on it too. The mortgage comes from savings during this time.
While I am off, instead of Oprah, I borrowed against MY annuity to improve my home, and stimulate the economy. I pay MYSELF back the loan, and pay MYSELF back the interest. Pretty cool,huh?
Meanwhile, while off, instaed of doing side jobs to feed the family, and paying no taxes, I am doing my own work instead of hiring illegal workers.
Yesterday, at age 55, I rented a compressor and jackhammer, and ran the dam thing 8 hrs. I hurt all over, but I can still do it. I used my time to do my own work, pay the rental guy, pay for fuel, pay dump fees, and improve my home so I can pay more property taxes, and educate yet more illegals.
I was not mooching off the system, but contributing toward society in many ways.
I hope I can make it to retirement, and just enjoy life in my golden years knowing I earned it. I will live in my home that I have paid off, or maybe some place like Arizone. Certainly not a shithole like Texas. :yahoo: (Sorry G)

 

[big_G]

I'm not buying into that. So with your logic, if we abolished the UAW tomorrow, the big 3 would screw their employees?..You believe that?...

What I AM saying is if that happened tomarrow, their prices of cars would not go down 1 fucking nickel. I bet you $1000 on that one.
I have seen it in housing, retail stores, and large corporations.
They go non union, and its staus quo, but profit margin goes up.
The money just shifts from employees to stockholders.

Any idea what legacy cost adds to the cost of a vehicle? Maybe cars isn't the best example.

$1,600 per vehicle. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_19/b3932001_mz001.htm

 

[big_G]

I will live in my home that I have paid off, or maybe some place like Arizone. Certainly not a shithole like Texas. :yahoo: (Sorry G)

It's all good, I love where I live, but the taxes are killing me. I would never consider Az, but Florida would work. The wife want's no part of it, but I can't afford to live near Austin for my retirement .:smash:

 

[big2bird]

I will live in my home that I have paid off, or maybe some place like Arizone. Certainly not a shithole like Texas. :yahoo: (Sorry G)

It's all good, I love where I live, but the taxes are killing me. I would never consider Az, but Florida would work. The wife want's no part of it, but I can't afford to live near Austin for my retirement .:smash:

Thanks for a good, adult debate. Larry was always afaid of too much animosity in the OT section, but I like to believe we are above that.
I thought of Florida too, but the wife says that too is a shithole. LOL
If you don't like taxes, don't come to Kalifornia. 10% or more of everything I get goes to the state here. My prop taxes are lower, but sales tax is 8%, and income tax is the highest in the land.
We need to pay the federally madated goods and services to our "Infestation.":rofl:
I have cousins and uncles all over Texas G. It just ain't my thing. City boy, you know. Next time I am your way, dinner is on me. Deal?

 

[damoroso]

So I am going to post my full story here, and let it go.
I have been in construction 33 years. All the buildings I built were paid entirely by the developer, not subsidised by taxpayers. I have ins, a pension, and have never collected unemployment longer than the 26 weeks I get paid for. I will never need assitence from the govt.
I own a home that I can afford, and pay taxes to educate millions of illegals that never have paid into the system.
I am on unemployment till Jan 15th, when the next show starts. This is paid by my employer gleefully, as he knows I will return to work as apart of the workpool. This cost is passsed onto the participants in trade shows, as high fees. Since trade shows are not 365 days a year, it has to come from somewhere.
They can't just put us in the freezer untill the next show.
It is just enough for food, and I pay taxes on it too. The mortgage comes from savings during this time.
While I am off, instead of Oprah, I borrowed against MY annuity to improve my home, and stimulate the economy. I pay MYSELF back the loan, and pay MYSELF back the interest. Pretty cool,huh?
Meanwhile, while off, instaed of doing side jobs to feed the family, and paying no taxes, I am doing my own work instead of hiring illegal workers.
Yesterday, at age 55, I rented a compressor and jackhammer, and ran the dam thing 8 hrs. I hurt all over, but I can still do it. I used my time to do my own work, pay the rental guy, pay for fuel, pay dump fees, and improve my home so I can pay more property taxes, and educate yet more illegals.
I was not mooching off the system, but contributing toward society in many ways.
I hope I can make it to retirement, and just enjoy life in my golden years knowing I earned it. I will live in my home that I have paid off, or maybe some place like Arizone. Certainly not a shithole like Texas. :yahoo: (Sorry G)

Dude, you realize you're more the exception than the rule? An awful lot of guys in your position would be gaming the system, especially in the land of fruits and nuts!! Funny, as a union guy and a non-union guy I think we're alot closer on issues than you'd think.

Oh and I wouldn't be so quick to bash Texas. I spend alot of time there and find the folks there friendly, the food good, and the women are really, really atractive and friendly too!! Plus don't compare the cost of living between CA and TX...it'll make you sick, especially when you look at retirement!! :shocking:

 

[big_G]

I will live in my home that I have paid off, or maybe some place like Arizone. Certainly not a shithole like Texas. :yahoo: (Sorry G)

It's all good, I love where I live, but the taxes are killing me. I would never consider Az, but Florida would work. The wife want's no part of it, but I can't afford to live near Austin for my retirement .:smash:

Thanks for a good, adult debate. Larry was always afaid of too much animosity in the OT section, but I like to believe we are above that.
I thought of Florida too, but the wife says that too is a shithole. LOL
If you don't like taxes, don't come to Kalifornia. 10% or more of everything I get goes to the state here. My prop taxes are lower, but sales tax is 8%, and income tax is the highest in the land.
We need to pay the federally madated goods and services to our "Infestation.":rofl:
I have cousins and uncles all over Texas G. It just ain't my thing. City boy, you know. Next time I am your way, dinner is on me. Deal?

City boy?..I lived in Houston for 11 years, that was city enough for me. California?...hell no. What with my big house and garage, on 3.6 acres..would cost 2 mil.+ anywhere in Calif. Cool, you buy dinner and I'll pick the steak-house...lol